2007 - 2021

Beyond Orangefest

CGj1oLHXIAAlU-gBy Mike Small

This is a Freedom Of Information request to Police Scotland (thanks to @lordanthony23). There were 608 Orange marches in Scotland to 5th April 2014, 500 in Strathclyde alone at a cost of over half a million pounds of public money.

This puts pay to the argument that stopping the Orangefest would be somehow an act of censorship. It would not.They are hugely over-represented in public life.

By banning this event we would give a challenge to the idea that one group should be given free reign in the city centre of our largest city, with their track record, their already huge public presence, the likelihood of disorder and the massive cost to the public purse.

As we wrote last year: “Nobody asks why an event with 4,500 marchers and 4,000 spectators needs 3,000 stewards. A ratio of 2.8 participants to a steward? For context the ratio of primary school children: teachers is 16.5 to 1. The real sadness here should come from the fact that this will be forgotten by tomorrow. We’re used to seeing this on our streets, in our lives, every summer. It’s become one-of-those-things. Nobody’s in a rush to change it.”

The problem is that we have normalised and legitimised this culture. We are inured to sectarianism.The debate is cynical, weary and knowing. I write this on Wednesday, the event is on Saturday, the likelihood of it being stopped are slim but we can at least have a massive show of dissatisfaction and rejection of bigotry and make a stand for accountability from GCC.

This petition is a way of reclaiming the streets:

“The people of Glasgow and Scotland are sick of their voices going unheard in relation to sectarian, hate filled orange marches. Now we have to put up with Orangefest. We demand that GCC answer to the people of Glasgow as to why this was allowed to go ahead in a city centre location on a busy Saturday. Gordon Matheson must be held accountable.”

Sign the petition here.


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Comments (114)

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    1. sandy ritchie says:

      sounds a good idea…next stop ban political marches maybe?…people gathering in certain numbers…what about the James Connolly memorial event in the Grass Market Edinburgh which is also a popular tourist spot …every event should be considered on its merits for disturbance but taking into account the democratic right to march or protest…many would want to avoid an old firm football match given the well known disturbance that these cause…not that such a match is likely in the near future mind you …lol

      1. Nobody’s being banned – they already have 500 marches in Strathclyde alone – it’s giving over the city centre ON TOP of this over representation that is the issue.

        1. florian albert says:

          Bella Caledonia; ‘Nobody’s being banned.’

          Mike Small’s article is a plea for the forthcoming march to be banned. It is depressing how eager ‘progressive’ Scotland is to ban those they don’t like.

          I think the number of marches, 500, may be misleading. Orange marches involve local lodges staging a march before going by bus to participate in a bigger march/rally. The local marches, which are often repeated in the evening on their return, involve a comparatively small number of people and commensurate disruption.

          1. Steve says:

            I think the issue would be more that the Orange Orders sole purpose is to celebrate the slaughter of gaelic people . Its sole purpose is to celebrate rape, genocide and conquest of Irish and Scottish people …. Should we now be democratic and allow Nazis , KKK and Isis marches ? In the interest of fairness and democracy of course….. There is nothing wholesome or moral about these people . Amazing how many members of the Orange order in America were also active members of the KKK…..

        2. 3wattdynamo says:

          I have enjoyed Bella Caledonia and I am inclined to support your OL sentiments: Mike Small. I was disappointed howver to hear you say on radio today that “we must remember these are the feral cousins of unionists”. Is this really your view ?

          Surely you don’t really want to associate all those not convinced about independence with the OL ?

          Furthermore is Unionist a term of abuse for you rather than an alternative position ?

      2. Jim Slaven says:

        The James Connolly commemoration has not taken the form of a march since 2006.

        1. sandy ritchie says:

          I assume your correct …more of a memorial meeting …however the JM association are a bit upset at Police Scotland agreeing to a flute band playing/marching on the same day as I gather that has caused problems with the memorial event…however I take the point from one the above respondents that the orange fest could have been carried out in a large park…

      3. billybhoy says:

        james connoly was a protestant there are no sectarian chants at these parades

  1. sandy ritchie says:

    Democracy comes at a price I’m afraid but agree the sheer numbers of msrches, particularly in areas where Catholics and other members of the public feel intimated, should be banned. Of course one mans bigot is another’s traditionalist. I note a flute band is playing in Edinburgh at same time as that great Socialist and some may say traitor, James Connolly, is being held in his memory in Edinburgh. “Celebrating” historical events can be difficult for many..but its democracy.

  2. Fed up with the Lies and Propaganda of the London Media Industrial Complex says:

    The Orange march in Edinburgh the week before the Referendum, bussed in from Northern Ireland, all dressed up like Sergent Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club, it was kinda sad and pathetic, it’s just embarrassing.

    1. sandy ritchie says:

      didn’t even know that such a march went ahead …and if known would have given a wide berth …not that I’d be interested anyway

    2. Marian says:

      I was exiting Waverley railway station at the Market Street entrance with my grandchildren when the Orange marchers came along Market Street. We were forced to wait for what seemed an eternity as these people swaggered past and then as we made our way to go up one of the closes to the Royal Mile had to go past a large crowd of Orange hangers on who were drinking and urinating in full view of tourists and women and children trying to go about their normal business on a Saturday afternoon.

      The sooner this unacceptable behaviour is banned the better it will be for Scotland.

  3. Darby O'Gill says:

    Over what period did these marches take place? The article states ‘…to 5th. April 2014…’ but doesn’t state from when.

    1. That’s for a year up April 2013 – April 2014

  4. Onwards says:

    What is the exact time period here? Anyone know the number of marches in Glasgow in a typical year. Total for 2014 maybe ?

  5. Anonimous says:

    Get them banned, get everyone who part takes in this at all sides banned. It only aggravates everything and causes such violence.

  6. john young says:

    I am a Celtic fan/Catholic,the Orange Order has every right to celebrate their culture/history,they do not have the right to bring hatred/sectarianism to our streets,why don,t they or the republican marchers go to the likes of Bellahouston Park and celebrate,I am sure it wouldn,t cause huge dis-ruption to the public and would need a lot less policing,the biggest issue I have as a Catholic is the unremitting hatred brought by the Orangemen,no dis-cussion no dialogue nothing blind and stark,it is quite sad to watch and listen to,it is and will continue to be a big big blight on our country,I just cannot get a handle on what religion you choose or practice has any bearing whatsoever on who you are as a person.

    1. Darby O'Gill says:

      As Unitarians we try to use reasoning and tolerance to seek out the good in all other faiths and religions and even absorb some of their ideas into our own faith where appropriate. However its difficult to find any rationale in the Orange Order, although I suspect most members are decent law-abiding citizens. They appear to march to demonstrate their belief that the reigning monarch must only be of the Protestant faith. I thought the Act of Settlement already ensured that. Or have I misunderstood?

      1. Marga says:

        Would you really need to march 500 times in one year to declare your support for the idea that the monarch must not be a catholic? Is there an imminent threat?

        Or am I missing something?

        1. sandy ritchie says:

          The online description of the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland is “the branch of the Orange Order in Scotland. It is a protestant only, masonic-style fraternity that defends/promotes protestantism, conservatism, Britishness and the continuation of the UK, ie Unionism”…
          So given the above description its no wonder that there’s an outpouring of anger about the march in Glasgow given that BC is a promotes nationalism. The OO is antithesis of Nationalism, Catholicism and Socialism. So no surprise that these groups are vehemently opposed to what it stands for. It is unfortunate that many in Scotland, especially in the West, support and appear active in promoting the OOs views, but once again, in my opinion, it would be wrong to ban this march, unless the police had good information that it would create violence and mayhem. It would be anti democratic if it was banned if neither were anticipated.

    2. james cormack says:

      Why is there no debate amongst them? What is their position on privatisation of the NHS, for example? Just march, march, march and then drink, drink, drink…Pubs do ok though (well, certain pubs)

  7. Fed up with the Lies and Propaganda of the London Media Industrial Complex says:

    If you want to know what the Orange Lodge / Freemasonry is all about, the strange looking temples, the bizarre rituals, the secret blood oaths and who they really worship, check out Albert Pike and his book Morals and Dogma…..

    1. Darby O'Gill says:

      Freemasonry and the Orange Lodge are entirely different entities. Freemasonry accepts people of all faiths and religions and requires its members to treat all men as equals. All that is required for entry is a belief in a single creator.

      1. Fed up with the Lies and Propaganda of the London Media Industrial Complex says:

        Darby ”All that is required for entry is a belief in a single creator.”

        Hmm, with Freemasonry it always has two or three meanings, one meaning for the public, another meaning for the low level masons ( useful idiots ) and another meaning for the 33 degree masons.

        Masons say the letter ” G” in between their little logo the compass and the rule stands for God but it really stands for Gnosticism or Generator of Life. Let’s just say this, it isn’t Christian.

        1. Darby O'Gill says:

          Sorry Fed up, there is only one meaning for the letter ‘G’ – ‘Great Architect of the Universe’, whom some call God. It is a title that brings people of different faiths together – Christians, Muslims, Jews and others. As such freemasonry is inclusive and is also classless and actively encourages good behaviour.

          1. Fed up with the Lies and Propaganda of the London Media Industrial Complex says:

            Darby ”As such freemasonry is inclusive ”

            Hmm, apart from the blacks, they have their own separate lodges they can go to, Prince Hall.

      2. Marga says:

        Well in my family, freemasonry and membership of the Orange Lodge went together. Maybe it was unique, I don’t know.

  8. Joe Rocks says:

    Under the Equality Act GGC have a statutory obligation to promote and encourage equality. To allow the Orange Order to rent George Square for Orangefest is a dereliction of their duties if not legally but morally.
    The Orange Order does not allow Catholic members or gay members and woman are not allowed to hold office bearing positions in their organisation.
    The Orange Order is openly sectarian homophobic and sexist. for the life of me I cannot understand why GCC have given this the go ahead

    1. leavergirl says:

      Well, hm. I feel kinda dismayed at this outpouring of outrage and ridicule (that on the Dug). Is political correctness rearing its head here? Should only people whom you approve of be given permits to march or hold fests? Funny how those promoting inclusiveness shut it down in the face of “certain people beyond the pale.”

      Why target one group? If you feel the permit was given incorrectly, then it should apply to anyone, nah? I would appreciate it if people explained exactly why this group is being targeted, and why the disgust, but especially how it makes political sense and satisfies fair play to target and single out someones you dislike or feel disgust with. After all, as Monty Python always said, “if you are easily offended, don’t watch”!

      1. Did you read the article?

        ‘Should only people whom you approve of be given permits to march or hold fests?’

        No. Many groups should, even ones I don’t like, or find repellent.

        This groups has already had 500 events. The idea therefore that they are being excluded or somehow ‘done down’ is therefore ridiculous.

        It’s everyone’s city centre, so the option of ‘don’t watch’ isn’t available.

        1. leavergirl says:

          Mike, I don’t appreciate your sharp tone. Of course I read the article.

          So your only problem is that one group among has held a lot of events, and perhaps the permitting process ought to be changed to even things out? Why not address your petition in that mode, instead going at one group?

          And while in a city centre the option “don’t watch” is more limited, it’s still available.

        2. sandy ritchie says:

          What absolute nonsense …coming from a SNP supporter. It looks like intolerance is becoming in embedded in the SNP mindset of many Indie supporters. As someone who has “marched” down the High Street in Edinburgh whilst on strike…no doubt disrupting traffic… And making a bleeding noise I find your comments, ironically, bordering on bigotry itself…

          1. leavergirl says:

            Whose comments? 🙂

          2. sandy ritchie says:

            Lol…I’ve forgotten who I was replying to…Mike maybe??

          3. Hi Sandy – I’m not a member of any political party, and Bella supports independence and transforming Scotland for the better – not any one party, so I’m not a ‘SNP supporter’.

          4. sandy ritchie says:

            Sigh.. You really need to read these emails a little bit more carefully. I said you were an SNP supporter …not a member. But if you mean you don’t support them …then I apologise

          5. I support independence and self-determination – and no specific party.

      2. derek says:

        Leavergirl, your reply is spot on. I was trying to put together my own reply but you have nailed it

    2. Tommy McGowan says:

      Not defending the O.O. but they are not the only organisation in Scotland that operates a closed door policy is there not a R.C. organisation called opus dia or something like that,I personally find underground organisations like that more dangerous .

  9. john young says:

    Darby O,gIll freemasonry may well have started out with that ethos but it is secretive/selective and dis-ruptive,you only have to look at the influence it has on most lives and not for the good.

    1. Fed up with the Lies and Propaganda of the London Media Industrial Complex says:

      The black and white chess board design on policemens hats, a masonic symbol.

    2. james cormack says:

      You cannot be serious, John. Freemasons do not march. and as for intolerance and bigotry some of the most enlightened and left wing people in history were freemasons, from Robert Burns to Salvador Allende

      1. Fed up with the Lies and Propaganda of the London Media Industrial Complex says:

        ”the most enlightened and left wing people in history were freemasons, from Robert Burns to Salvador Allende”

        And Stalin.

    3. maxi kerr says:

      John, you are correct, how many good men have had their carreer’s crippled by masonic shenanigans whilst dunderheid tossers climb the promotion ladder.

  10. Anton says:

    The issue is very simple. Should public demonstrations in support of a particular point of view be banned? The answer is no, regardless how much we might disagree with the point of view being expressed. It’s called freedom and democracy.

    So, Mike, when you say that banning a public demonstration would not be censorship you’re plainly wrong. Incidentally, I note that you don’t bother to support your justification that the Orange order is “hugely over-represented in public life” with any evidence. Do you mean that, say, the Scottish Government is in thrall to “over-representation” by the Orange order? Perhaps you could post links to the data on which you base your claim.

    The Orange marches are not a cause of sectarianism. They’re a symptom. If we really want to banish sectarianism, there’s a simple solution. All the Scottish Government has to do is to withdraw funding from all faith schools, of any denomination or religion whatsoever.

    They could do it, but they won’t. I invite others to explain why the Scottish Government is so committed to sectarian education/indoctrination.

    1. leavergirl says:

      People always form “factions” of one kind or another. If you go after “them”, then stop complaining that when the roulette wheel turns, they go after “you.”

      The American Founders had a good vision: to accept that factions will always form, and create a government/social system where one faction balances another, and no faction is allowed to crush or elevate another. It didn’t quite work out that way, but it’s a good ideal, I think…

      Raining on other people’s parade is such poor form, IMO… even if they are, OMG, sectarians.

    2. Mary says:

      I sent my Children to NonDenominatiolal schools. Supposed to be. My Son was picked on constantly because he supported his team of choice Celtic. He was able to handle this constant Abuse. As he was well liked. Other kids the same as him that picked there football team of choice got the same shit. From this supposed to be Non Denomination school. On any special occasions . Easter .Christmas. It was a Church of Scotland Minister. That took the Service. Of this supposed to be Non Denomination School. This School and others like it are Presbyterian Schools.mthere is no such thing as Non denomination in Scotland. My Husband was all his life a Rangers Supporter. But my son loved Celtic. We could not believe the amount of shit he had to put up with at this School. All because he picked Celtic.

      1. maxi kerr says:

        Mary,it doesn’t matter where you live in Scotland. You will find that most footie fans support either celtic or rangers as they don’t have the gumption to support their local teams.They just want to support WINNERS even if they live miles away from Ibrox or Celtic park.
        The secritarian part of Scottish football..”well their IQ is about the same as their waist measurements.

    3. ben madigan says:

      why are faith (RC) schools a problem in scotland and Northern ireland – where the orange order is strongest?

      I never hear people calling for the abolition of faith (RC) schools in England, Wales or the republic of ireland- exception being some muslim schools in england. Ever wonder why?

      1. Anton says:

        Ben Madigan – You say that you “never hear people calling for the abolition of faith (RC) schools in England, Wales or the republic of Ireland”.

        I’m not sure why you think that the phrase “faith schools” means “RC schools”. That’s certainly not what I mean, and after a quick trawl of Google I can’t find anyone else who agrees with you. You might try Wikipedia as a starting point.

        Otherwise, if you’ve never heard of anyone in the UK outside Scotland calling for the abolition of faith schools (as everyone else understands the term) I would point you in the direction of a guy called Richard Dawkins who’s been arguing against faith schools for many years. Again, a quick Google search will bring you up to speed, though to be honest I’m quite surprised you’ve never heard of him – he’s quite high profile in the media.

    4. Marga says:

      “The Orange marches are not a cause of sectarianism. They’re a symptom.”

      Well, speaking from personal experience, they seem to be neither cause nor symptom, but a means of ensuring the survival of a set of beliefs from one generation to the next. Maybe ideas should be left to convince the young on their merit, instead of introducing emotional links with childhood, celebration and family as a hook.

      On another count, is it bad to stop marches if the beliefs they promote are morally objectionable to many? The same dilema applies here in Spain with marches by fascists and falangists. These are legal. Needless to say, in a country like Spain which is legendary for being “the two Spains” the passing down from father to son of this particular intolerant mindset is not particularly positive, nor forward-looking.

    5. Steve says:

      By your logic the KKK and Nazis should be allowed have marches too ??? Its all about democracy after all ??? The orange order , nazis and KKK all have one thing in common . They were created to celebrate and further the genocide of an ethnicity … In the orange orders case it was Irish people and by extension any catholic.

      So should we set aside a week in the summer now for cross burning and fake hangings of people in black face ?? Its a culture after all … wouldnt want to be undemocratic :-/

      1. Anton says:

        Whizz bang! Godwin’s Law strikes again.

        1. steve says:

          Hmmm …. How drole of you …I’m sure you think your quite the comedian for your sarcastic comment …

          Forgive me for pointing out that the orange order was set up with the sole purpose of celebrating and furthering the genocide of the Irish ethnicity among other things …. Of course that’s nothing like the Nazi movement which was set up for the genocide of Semitic peoples and all non “Aryans” in the same way the orange order is against all non “WASP” people .

          Facts must annoy people like you. ..very inconvenient ey ?

          The best part is you guys have no idea what the parades are really like …. You only have tiny things …. Just wait till its like what we have in the north . wait for the next independent referendum and the loyalist terrorist organisations target your women and children …. All in the name of “culture” of course … And their democratic right to persecute people and celebrate genocide

    6. Fi says:

      The idea that faith schools foster sectarianism in Scotland has always puzzled me. I spent my childhood in South Australia where all the catholics went to the local convent school and we had virtually no interaction with them during school years. No sectarianism in society as a result. I lived in London for most of my adult life. Again, catholics went to catholic schools and there was no sectarianism. In Scotland, on the other hand, I have known many catholics who’s parents hailed from the Republic of Ireland and did not want their children educated in a catholic school due to their own bad experiences with nuns and priests etc. At ‘non-denominational’ schools, once it was established they were catholics they endured physical and verbal abuse and ended up having to go to catholic schools in the end to escape it. The logical conclusion I would have to come to is that separate schooling is not the driving force for sectarianism. This may seem counter-intuitive if you have never lived outside Scotland and there may be a valid argument to be had elsewhere about whether we should have faith schools as a matter of principle in a secular society, but blaming them for our bitter sectarianism is clearly wrong.

      As to Orange Fest. I am always wary of banning things we don’t like too easily. If we want to de-fang the Orange Order and transform it into something where some people can celebrate their history without spouting hatred for others in the here and now that would be great. It will take a long time, but it may come eventually and the likeliehood of this happening may be greater if we don’t play into the victim mentality that some of the diehard bigots suscribe to. Let them celebrate. Praise their good behaviour and punish any wrongdoing. Hopefully history will move on.

  11. Stuart McDuff says:

    Some on here suggest the diddy men should be banned because they offend Catholics.

    To any Catholic viewing this, your not alone, the vast majority of your Protestant neighbours feel exactly the same, they are an embarrassment.

    The only positive thing about the orange order is that it acts as a reminder to society of how low and primitive a section of uneducated society can become when all that unites them is hatered for others.

    Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Protestants and atheists, unite, ignore the diddy men and go about your business on Saturday!

  12. Mary says:

    The only reason this Orange Fest is on in George Square is because the GGC want the Votes for Labour Council . They need these Unionists to give them the Vote. They don’t realise no one in Glasgow will forget the 19 sep 2014. The young girls getting beating up by thugs fron Northern Ireland. And a certain part of Glasgow after an Orange Parade that day. The Scenes in Glasgow where Disgraceful. Even the Tourists got caught up in this. And the BBC never reported it. Labour are finished in Scotland. Including there GGC Councillors. They will be gone.

  13. MacD says:

    No doubt Saturday will be the ‘friendly face’ of Orangeism – however the sight of 11th night bonfires, lauded by Loyalists as maintaining ‘important aspects of culture and tradition’, and where Irish flags, Palestinian flags, Yes Scotland symbols, effigies of Nationalist politicians hanging from gallows, or any other symbol perceived to be not of their liking, are variously to be seen on the awaiting pyre, a prelude to the following day’s ‘celebrations’ – should serve as a reminder as to how much Orangeism exists as an intransigent and divisive force in our communities. Therein lies the conundrum – should an organisation steeped in intolerance be tolerated by being allowed free expression on the streets of Glasgow?

    1. leavergirl says:

      “Therein lies the conundrum – should an organisation steeped in intolerance be tolerated by being allowed free expression on the streets of Glasgow?”

      Indeed. It’s amazing how fast some so-called tolerant people step into the other shoes when their own cry “intolerance” goes up — and they are blind to the irony.

      I am disappointed in the lack of argument here. One person complained of urinating on the street. Aren’t there already laws on the books about that? And drinking is not a crime — not at the moment anyway. Unless someone comes with a reasoned argument why “stopping” (how is that different from banning?) this weekend’s orangefest is a good idea, I am going to assume bias. What else could an outsider assume, reading this stuff?

  14. Fed up with the Lies and Propaganda of the London Media Industrial Complex says:

    A documentary on Freemasonry, ” The Lightbringers, the Emissaries of Jahbulon” they all must suffer from low self esteem since they all like pompous, long winded titles.

  15. Stuart McDuff says:

    There is one thing in Scotland that has sustained organism over the years and that is Rangers. without Rangers, there is no raison d’être.

    When Rangers went down to the third division and into liquidation, that was the chance to change, however it hasn’t, they chose not to.

    Rangers fan base is disappearing like snow of a dyke, this will continue and the support for orangish will reduce and disappear.

    I can think of no other groups in Scottish society that could be viewed as soul mates, their only soul mates appear to be their counterparts in Northern Ireland and the BNP, English Defense Legue and other right wing facist groups in England.

    Orangism in Scotland in 2015 finds itself in the wrong country, atthe wrong time and amongst people who feel more pity than score for them.

    That labour in Scotland would use these people and or expect their votes, will back fire, people will see through it and vote accordingly.

    1. R. Johnstone says:

      Absolutely spot on Stuart I get the same feeling. Passed down from generation to generation no need for it in this day and age.

    2. sandy ritchie says:

      I suspect Rangers and Celtic feed off each other. As a Hearts fan I’ve had the unfortunate experience of attending matches played against against both bigot twins although I know that some Hearts fans are no angels. However I’m pleased that the SNP have resisted the call to repeal the offensive behaviour at football etc legislation. I’m also disappointed that Labour indicated they would have repealed it. The grotesque chanting of Rangers and Celtic fans are a shame on Scottish football. Fans other than those of both these obnoxious clubs would be glad to see the back of them. They are a stain on Scottish football ..and BOTH ferment hatred.

  16. Lochside says:

    Leavergirl…do you live in Scotland..specifically the West? If you do have you watched or encountered an Orange parade? If you have, ‘tolerance’ is an abstract word to employ when discussing these public disturbances.

    These parades invariably involve aggression, anti-Catholic (and in recent years anti-Muslim and anti-Scottish) and anti-Irish invective being shouted and played by military clad individuals in belligerent musical bands. If you try to cross the street, even between bands you are in danger of being assaulted. And don’t expect the Police to assist you. On the contrary, you may be arrested for disturbing the marchers’ peace , instead of them being perceived to be committing the offence.

    These bands are accompanied, always by drunken hangers on, invariably bedecked in Rangers and loyalist regalia. You don’t need to have any faith or none to be intimidated by these cretins.

    It should be remembered that on September the 19th of last year, the same people, not officially Orange Order, but the human detritus that surrounds this organisation ,came out on to George Square and attacked young people who had the effrontery to be ‘YES’ supporters and battered them and burned Scotland’s flag in the centre of our biggest city.

    The Orange Lodge is politically and resolutely anti-Scottish political independence, anti-Catholic and does not allow Catholics or those married to Catholics to join it. Its adherents belong to the loyalist communities in Scotland who provide the foot soldiers for the Scottish Defence League and other racist and sectarian groups. These are hate groups.

    Are you seriously bracketing these people with any other grouping of a political or social nature in terms of rights to freedom of assembly? Purely on the basis of their hateful beliefs but more importantly, their criminal behaviour, over decades, permitted by Police Scotland, there is absolutely no grounds for this organisation to be permitted to break the peace and tranquillity of Scottish life.

    Let them assemble at a park or football ground (obvious choice there!) or better still go to Ireland and march along with their bitter cousins. They are no different from the EDL (indeed many of them, being wannabees, are members) and other far right groups. At least the latter are open in their hatred, the OO masquerade as ‘defenders’ of a ‘faith’.

    1. leavergirl says:

      Lochside, no, I have never encountered an Orange parade. That’s why I was asking questions that would show reasonable grounds for banning the upcoming fest.

      I understand these people create a “public disturbance.” But there are already laws on the books about that. Why not insist that the authorities make sure these people clean up their acts — along with any other group that may want to behave similarly? I objected to targeting one group. It’s a bad precedent. (Over on Wee Ginger Dug most people were urging to get out of the area, and to help kids and older people get out as well, listing all the various attractive events going on elsewhere. A great idea!)

      I am looking at this strategically. The forces that are already analysing how Scotland “got out of hand,” wanting to make sure they know how to undermine it, and to prevent it in the future and elsewhere, are always looking to see how to sow the seeds of division. “Divide and rule!” But if they are reading this in Bella they may think, hell, here is one place where the indy Scots are doing the dirty work for us. They won the battle, now they have begun to skirmish against other Scots. Just as we hoped.

      I believe in building bridges instead. If these people have so much energy they are always organizing parades, where does the energy come from? What are the Orange women and children saying? Some people say they are all anachronisms, but then why bother — they’ll just fade. But then again, if there are good parts to what matters to them, then the other side would do well to be aware of them, and use them to create common language. Divisions and targeting of fellow Scots, regardless how much you dislike them and how much they have been supported by the old order of things, is not a good way forward, IMO.

      I say, pick your battles carefully. Save your ire for the real culprits: the liars, smearers, fraudsters, corruption-mongers, abusers of public trust, assorted psychopaths and narcissists in government and elsewhere. Fairness, honesty, decency. Let the old wither as the new grows. Saor alba!

      1. A pretty depressing prospect in 21C Scotland that anybody should have to ‘clear the area’ – ‘help kids and older people get out’. Why the hell should people have to do this? This is bizarre.

        1. leavergirl says:

          See? Monty Python is heeded. They decided to “not watch.” What a civilized option toward some annoying fellow Scots! Maybe when there is an independence bash, maybe some Orangemen will repay the favor. 🙂

      2. maxi kerr says:

        Leavergirl, The British establishment have kept the sectarian flame alive in Scotland to further their own unionist agenda.They have divided a nation in two by convincing the population into thinking that Scots catholics and Scots protestants are two different species of human being.The sad thing is that most of the less “bright”members of our society seem to be so immersed in this scenario that they just blindly follow along oblivious to what its doing to them and their families.

        1. leavergirl says:

          Maxi, and what is Mike doing? The same to them back. So if you already know this strategy of divide and rule has been ongoing, why not… do something radical and stop dancing to their divisive tune?

          1. maxi kerr says:

            Leavergirl,how radical can one be?.The enemy we are fighting against has a lot of well dug in helpers,so much so, that you don’t really know who’s on your team.I have tried educating lots of people and i found out to my own personal cost that these shits are well connected in local government and have the means to exact revenge on anyone attacking their agenda, so you have to be very careful.

          2. MacD says:

            leavergirl – there are many virtues to your argument but one thing that concerns me is how Saturday’s event will put an ‘acceptable face’ on a subculture that has a fairly dark side to it. No, I have never stepped inside an Orange lodge and accept that they apply rules of conduct to their members as regards public behaviour and so forth. However for around 50 years – beginning at primary school – I’ve been able to comprehend first hand just how corrosive and divisive an animal religious bigotry is. I heard it first hand throughout the 60s, not in my own home but in that of neighbours who were part of the Orange tradition – a smug mindset that believed their position transcended that of other working class people – namely those of the Catholic faith – and one that should, openly or by stealth, place them in favourable positions in the workplace. This notion of supremacy went beyond the shores of Scotland – an idea of supreme military might and ownership of colonies with the monarchy as figurehead, an admiration for the apartheid regimes of Rhodesia and South Africa, hero worship of Mad Mitch and his Argylls in Aden, into the 70s and the awaiting tragedy in Ireland. All bound up with Lodge culture and support of Rangers. Let me say that these were people who did me no malice, were often kind and generous, but this was tied up with a notion that I was ‘one of their own kind.’ So at a reasonably early age I was already twigging that these were ideas that were not for me. Over the years when seeing an Orange walk on the horizon my habit is to turn in the other direction, given the general levels of aggression they tend to generate. Let’s face it, any organisation founded on the slaughter and land-grab of indigenous Catholic people in the 1790s (namely the Battle of the Diamond and Armagh Outrages), and going on the perpetuate and glory in the slaughter of Catholic peoples since 1690, is bound to stir malice and division. Since the 1960s and 70s I’ve seen little to convince me that much has changed with this particular ‘culture’, so hopefully my unwillingness to embrace and openly engage with Saturday’s event might be forgiven. Given their outrage in the face of a democratic victory for the SNP as published in their ‘Orange Torch’ newspaper, I am further mindful of attending an event that may potentially confound politics in Scotland with that of intransigent religious views – there are too many glaring examples in the world to demonstrate how such a recourse is the road to absolute disaster. Their language – at least as I’ve always comprehended it – has consistently been that of the ‘other’. Though I did get a laugh on listening to the radio debate on BBC Scotland yesterday – Presenter: ‘But Catholics are not allowed in your organisation?’ Caller: ‘No Catholics can join.’ Presenter: ‘Catholics can join?’ Caller: ‘Yes, so long as they convert and adhere to the reformed faith.’ Paraphrased a tad from memory but closely along those lines.

  17. leavergirl says:

    Maxi, I was referring to the temptation to be divisive on the indy side. Of course they are well connected, and of course you gotta be careful. But you don’t need to fan the flames of divisiveness with screeds like this one on Bella, and elsewhere, right? You don’t need to cling to some… I don’t know… self-righteous sense of entitlement displayed in Mike’s response just above? Petulance and denying them permitted spaces, where does that lead? Petulance and denial of other things on their part in retaliation, no? Rising above ourselves is Bella’s motto. Well, isn’t it time to live it?

    No, you don’t know who is on your team until they are tested in the heat of conflict. Test them early. This is a delicate game, just in its infancy, and recognition is key. Many thanks for the conversation. (Not that I am saying it has to stop! :-))

  18. leavergirl says:

    MacD, the system is denying me a reply button, I must be making too many comments or something. So I am starting a new thread. Thank you for your kind words, I am so glad someone here is hearing me. And thank you for all the interesting historical tidbits. Well, you know, the Catholics have not been exactly bashful about oppressing and abusing people and peoples either. Sigh. So who initiates something saner? How about the indy side?

    So Catholics can’t join. So what? I belong to a book club. It’s not explicitly barred to people who don’t read, but we all know it really is only for readers of a certain intelligence and willingness to discuss ideas. We all look for birds of a feather. As for their religious and other ideas you disagree with… they are just words. It’s actions that really matter. They have been kind to you. So, perhaps you can be one of the bridge-builders, finding a common language for a new Scotland. A thought?

    1. leavergirl says:

      And I just found this on the Order’s website. Perhaps they too are looking for something a bit different in the years ahead. The letter is from the police.

      “One clear example of this has been in regards to the number of Police Officers on duty during the Annual Boyne Celebration event. For many years now, the Orange Order has told us that they believed that the March was over policed and was causing an unnecessary burden on the public purse. This has always been an issue that has had a negative impact on our relationship both before, during and after the event.

      However, working with you, we have found a solution that will dramatically reduce the number of Officers who will be on duty at this year’s event – without any impact on public safety. Like all good solutions, this was a simple one. Over the past few weeks we have been working with the Orange Order to provide training to your members so that they can act as marshalls at the event. The more properly trained marshalls you have, the less Police Officers we have to have on duty.

      This is just one example – albeit an important one – of our better relationship and our improved way of working together. It is a welcome step forward.

      I appreciate that there is a public image of the annual Boyne parade that you do not want and that we cannot tolerate. The drunken, loutish behaviour that we all too often see on the day is an embarrassment to your organisation and is something that I am absolutely determined to stamp out.

      However, I want to assure you that I can see the distinction between the people who are expressing their democratic right to march through the streets as part of the Parade and the people who see the event as an excuse to get drunk and behave appallingly.

      That is why this year, the Police that we will have on duty will not be there to marshall the progress of the Parade, rather they will be there to directly tackle public drinking, sectarian singing and other antisocial behaviour. It is a cliché to say it, but it does not make it any less true. We will be taking a zero tolerance approach on the day.”

      1. Marga says:

        So Leavergirl, the Police make a statement of intent – a change of policy, it seems, from marshalls at the service of the marsh to enforcers of the law.

        After the march people will be able to come to their own conclusions.

    2. MacD says:

      Good idea but the events of George Square on 19th September 2014 are an adequate reminder that my views would most likely not be tolerated, and sets me at a caution that George Square in June 2015 will arouse similar passions. Circular arguments about claim of right, monarchies and revolutions that took place centuries ago aren’t really my thing. If I want to learn more history there are plenty other places on offer without getting frustrated at discussions that invariably end at a brick wall. If any organisation went on public displays commemorating slaughters and dominance over religious or ethnic groups they would – rightly – be roundly condemned, and there is absolutely nothing, not even curiosity, would motivate me to attend such an event, regardless of who was organising it. Why listen to a racket of flutes and drums composed to put the fear of death in people when I could chill out with a few decent tunes? I see a number of bars & restaurants are already suffering cancellations on bookings for Saturday – probably based on a commonsense decision to avoid the town when the air gets ponderous and those big Lambeg drums start pounding. Just how much fun the ‘fun day’ pans out to be remains to be seen.

      1. maxi kerr says:

        Mac, i just feel that these events just don’t sit right with a decent society.I sense real menace behind it.

        1. leavergirl says:

          It seems that many people feel the same way about the “nats.” So what now? Tit for tat?

          1. Fed up with the Lies and Propaganda of the London Media Industrial Complex says:


            Big difference, if you don’t like the democratically elected SNP MPs, MSPs, you can vote them out, unlike the knuckle headed racists of the Orange Lodge

          2. Marga says:

            Leavergirl, it’s nothing to do with specific opinions, it’s the end result for society of the groups in question, OO and similar and political and other social activitists. Think about it.

  19. Hugh Loughlan says:

    I signed this petition. I don’t believe this event should go ahead on Saturday in George Square. Of course, as someone who supports freedom of speech, this is a challenging position to take. I respect Mike’s point of view with regards to overexposure of a particular group. However, I think as a society we need to be really honest with each other on issues such as this. A considered response from Glasgow City Council would have been to offer an alternative venue. This would have allowed the expression and celebration of this group’s views while enabling the majority of citizen’s to go about their normal Saturday business. The real problem though remains. Of course this organisation has a high profile, particularly in the west of Scotland but there is no measurable limit to acceptable exposure. A number of events and marches of various kinds are banned every year on the grounds of potential public disorder. So clearly banning this event would not be singling this organisation out in particular. The question for all of us is, I believe; can freedom of speech ever be justifiably curtailed in a truly democratic society? On balance I think it can. However, we must be very careful about how such a strategy could be fairly implemented. It is a vexed question. I think that is what we should be graping with.

  20. leavergirl says:

    Fed Up, yahboo. This is not about politicians. This is about yoo.
    You can’t vote out Orangemen, and they can’t vote out indy nats. It’s a cultural schism. So face up to my question: what now, tit for tat? Because there will be others. Meaning, “others” that you consider disgusting, and vice versa. You want to walk the old miserable open road of mutual hatred and provocation, or you want to walk through the narrow gate of… something new? Something that will heal Scotland, not throw more oil on the fire?

    Marga: indeed.

  21. Lochside says:

    Leavergirl….you answered my question. Because you have not witnessed the’Walk’ in all its ugly glory, you can’t have real insight into what people are telling you. ‘IndiNats’ are not a closed group of white, protestant anti-Catholic and anti-Irish bigots, the Orange Order in Scotland is.

    They are also politically far right and have military style groups attached to them. These groups mobilised themselves via Facebook on Sept. 19th in George Square under the banner of Loyalism. They battered young girls and burned Scottish flags. The Police failed to stop this riot and are now, unbelievably, are complicit in permitting the same people to take over our city centre on Saturday.

    If you feel people like that are entitled to assemble when they wish, well I admire your naivety, but someone else also has to pay.

    In the last year an Orange mob attacked an SNP shop in Partick terrifying a young woman worker sufficiently enough to barricade the door as they banged on the windows. At the Green in Glasgow a 12 year old girl was bottled. For years these bands have marched past and outside RC Chapels and intimidated worshippers purely because of their religion. Would you endorse the EDL doing the same outside a Mosque?

    You are right about one thing, the Police should have stopped this years ago, but because of Unionism and Loyalism which is endemic in the Scottish establishment it has not. One of the reasons most Scots of all religions and none, and all races want this stopped is because this organisation is a symptom of a sickness called imperialism which is still being exerted on our country by the rotten British State. For that reason alone these marches must stop.

    1. William Davidson says:

      Not quite sure how the O.O. can be classified as anti-Irish when it is, in fact, essentially an Irish organisation, with its origins in late 18th Century Co. Armagh, having then been brought to Scotland by Irish Protestant immigrants. The orange third of the Irish tricolour was included to recognise the importance of orange culture to many Protestant people in Ireland and to symbolise the hoped-for reconciliation between Nationalist and Unionist, Protestant and Catholic on this island. On the issue of anti-Catholicism, the O.O. makes very clear its opposition to the doctrines of the Catholic Church and that it supports the principles of the Reformation. I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with that, although, of course, it can cross over into bigotry against Catholic people. The Ancient Order of Hibernians, which is a Catholic/Nationalist marching organisation over here in N. Ireland never seems to draw the same criticism, although its inherent nature means it automatically excludes non-Catholics.
      All in all, from the perspective of the other side of the North Channel, I can’t quite understand what all the furore about this Orangefest is about. The O.O. over here in N.I. is now a much diminished organisation, its numbers down to around 30,000, out of a total Protestant population of almost a million : O.O. membership in Scotland is even smaller, at its membership peak in 1951, in its West of Scotland heartland, it averaged barely 2 per cent of adult male Protestants and has diminished since. It is a tiny relic of working class Protestantism populism, has no political or patronage power and its opposition to the Catholic Church is seen as increasingly anachronistic in a modern, secular Scotland. So ban this event if you must, but it seems to me to reek of the intolerance usually ascribed to the organisation you wish to ban.

      1. Sandy Ritchie says:

        William’s comments are the most informative and constructive I’ve read on this subject….thanks William….or should I say Billy…just kidding…lol

        1. William Davidson says:

          Thanks for that Sandy. There is something surreal about almost 30,000 people signing a petition to ban an event held by a micro-group, with less than half the membership of the petitioners. A small number of people obsessed with the activities of an even smaller number of people. A sledge hammer (admittedly a light one) employed to crush a peanut in the new Scotland.
          For anybody interested there are a couple of good academic studies on the O.O. in Scotland namely “The Billy Boys, A Concise History of Orangeism in Scotland” by William S. Marshall and “Protestants First : Orangeism in 19th Century Scotland,” by Elaine McFarland. The 1951 figures for O.O. membership are taken from a chapter in “New Perspectives on the Irish in Scotland” edited by Martin J. Mitchell, the chapter, “The Orange Order since 1860” was written by Eric Kaufmann.

          1. steve says:

            Bahaha when did the orange order become Irish ?? It is a British institute that was created by British settlers … Whose forefathers massacred the Irish indigenous population… The fact that these inbreds were born in Ireland does not make them Irish …. Maybe if they were immigrants it would be accepted that they are Irish .but they weren’t , they killed off over 1 million Irish , settled in those peoples homes and then eradicated the culture and language . British …not Irish

          2. sandy ritchie says:

            I believe Jews say the same thing about Palestinians…and of course GB is is so bad millions living here claim Irish heritage….maybe they’re not Scots or English either….funny old world…

          3. steve says:

            Loool ….. Bug different between the Zionists (not all Jews you ignoramus) claiming their supposed homeland of thousands of years ago … And the north of my country , where my great grand father was alive in some of the ethnic purges against the Irish ….. Or are you a typical Brit ? Believe you WASPs have “GODS RIGHT” to all lands and resources ???

            I get it …. So because of the issues in the middle east (which Britain and the allies created with the destruction of the Ottomans ) British people are entitled to claim Ireland as their own pissing ground and beat , kill rape Irish people .

            What a pleb

          4. sandy ritchie says:

            To paraphrase Alex Salmond “calm yourself man”. You know nowt about me so best not to make accusations about if I’m this or that. For your information I consider myself an Edinburgar, a Scot, a Brit and a European. I’m well aware of the history of these islands…including the war of the 3 kingdoms when Cromwell declared a Republic. No need to inform me of the Irish famine or for that matter the Highland clearances. I’m well aware of both and more. As someone who’s unfortunately attended matches that include the old firm, I’m also aware of their supporters background and belief. Both appear to refer to Ireland in one or way or another. Maybe both teams should bugger of to Ireland and leave Scotland in peace….

          5. Steve says:

            LOL…. the irish famine ?? Im sorry but 3 times in history you British have committed genocide against my people …. And you think you understand anything ?? My uncles were held in internment for being “of male fighting age” in Derry during the 70s… My cousins were killed for walking down the wrong road by you British … My family grew up in apartheid. Not being allowed live in most areas, own a business or work in most sectors….. And you “know” ?? Sitting on your laurels in Edinburgh you “know” … No … You do not know… Same way you dont know what happened in SA or any other war torn country because of YOUR people. So yes … Send all the Celtic fans and people over here by all means , And send all the British back where they came from … You have no right to our land and never did . You “know” nothing , your an ignorant small man commenting on things you have no conceivable concept of …. And when you get independence you still wont know … Because it will never be as bad over there as what we had to deal with … But it will be bad enough that you will wish you had stopped these bigots before they got a foothold.

            Lol how stereotypical … A privileged Brit telling me they “know” all about the “unfortunate” millions killed , raped and sold into slavery by his people …. And how I should just learn to accept the random racist attacks and bigotry of his people.


          6. Sandy Ritchie says:

            Well your correct…my information is nowt but 3rd hand living in Edinburgh where there’s few OO marches if any never mind living in Northern Ireland with it’s ..eh “troubles”. I’m not going to defend anything that went on hundreds, tens of years ago or even now, in Ireland north or south. It might surprise you that working people on this side of the pond also died of starvation and made homeless by the powers that be, although maybe not in the numbers in Ireland. But one thing for sure Brits involvement in Ireland has resulted in the hatred in Scotland between some communities manifesting itself as football rivalry (especially the west). That aint going to go away whether Scotland becomes independent or not. I’m not sure whether the conflict in Northern Ireland would disappear if or when Ireland becomes united either…but I’m sure you’ll have an opinion on that.

  22. ian says:

    Maybe we should arrange for leavergirl to be dropped into the middle of the”bash” when its in full swing.Having lived in Glasgow for a very long time there is nothing pleasant about those events and being held in the center of our biggest city leaves me speachless.

    1. leavergirl says:

      Hey, hook me up with Derek, William, Lochside (for spice), and Sandy, and I am game. But why in the world would that change my mind when I have already argued and argued that mere annoyance does not justify anyone’s getting banned?! (If it did, it would bode ill for most of us, in one situation or another.) Let’s see if they clean up their game, as the coppers insist. And if they do, will that merit a mention on Bella? Or more vitriol? With bated breath, I remain yours

      — leavergirl

      1. Steve says:

        So if it was the KKK would you have the same opinion ?? Would it be okay for them to march as long as their followers dont lynch a black person or cause disturbance ? Both organisations sole purpose is the genocide of an ethnicity … Both organisations only songs are about rape, murders and slavery …. Im watching you debate and every time someone tells you a fact you just ignore and continue with your nonsensical opinion that “everyone has the right” to march …. NO EVERYONE DOES NOT … No one has the right to celebrate the murder, rape and slavery of millions . Be a different story if your family had been murdered by these animals .

        1. leavergirl says:

          Animals? Nice. Isn’t that what the Nazis called the Jews, and the Pilgrims called the Indians? You are in a very distinguished company… NOT!

          1. steve says:

            You made literally 0% logic with your statement …. You’re saying that because The orange order killed and raped Irish people we aren’t allowed call them animals ….because Nazis called Jewish people animals ….. Its okay for orange order loyalists to call Irish people animals , murder , rape and celebrate it evert year with a party ..

            But how dare we call them animals ….

            I’m confused …. I follow Darwinism …. And it befuddles me that you haven’t bathed with a plugged in toaster yet ???

    2. Darby O'Gill says:

      As I recall, when the Pope visited Glasgow the main event was staged in Bellahouston Park. Why not offer the same venue to Orangefest?

  23. Andy Haney says:

    What next? An Isisfest in Newton Mearns,? Its funny Scotland united behind the SNP and I’ve be wondering where the establishment would try and create a split, yep tale as old as time divide and continue to rule!!

  24. Clydebuilt says:

    Haven’t read all comments yet…… Some of the most powerful and ancient Masonic Lodges are to be found in Italy ….a Catholic country!

  25. Dr Jim Scott says:

    The desire to parade power whether to promote a religion or an allegiance must in itself be a sign of insecurity. I’m convinced if the Orange Order were allowed to bear arms they would. In my humble opinion this demonstration is nothing more than a Unionist projection to counter the effect of what is the increasing momentum towards Independence which now is unstoppable no matter what the Unionists hope
    The use of all Media outlets to scare and tarnish the Independence Movement is failing daily as the people of Scotland of all Religions become more aware of themselves
    A new belief has come into sight and having been recognised as real will happen
    As the Unionists themselves said after the Referendum “You lost get over it” that phrase now is changing sides

  26. Lochside says:

    Leavergirl, I realise now that you are a troll. ‘Mere annoyance’? I and others have given you concrete examples of violent and thuggish behaviour by these people. This does not constitute ‘
    By the way, according to the Public Order Act of 1936, political groups such as the OO are not allowed to parade wearing uniforms in public. They did this in Edinburgh during the REF and they are doing it today. But will they be arrested?..will they hell!

    As I have stated elsewhere, Police Scotland and Glasgow City Council are colluding in this ‘event’, the latter as a payoff for the OO mass vote for them in the Council elections.

    Police Scotland failed to stop sectarian behaviour by serving troops at Ibrox during ‘Forces Day’ and also failed to prevent or stop Sept. 19th riot in George SQ. despite it being organised on social media. Have any ringleaders of mobbing and rioting ever been arrested? I think not.
    Panorama a week or so again showed the extent of RUC collusion with Loyalist killers during the troubles…expect a repeat here, if they are allowed to keep getting away with it.

    1. leavergirl says:

      Lochside, your insults, where will they lead? Nowhere, apart from rebounding on you. I have been on Bella long before our conversation.

      After thinking about it some more, here is my take: most of it is mere annoyance. People here and elsewhere have presented false statistics, and vented their bile, even though most of the people who belong to these Lodges are family folks who are probably just as appalled by the excesses. I think that the organisation has been infiltrated by thuggish, character-disordered people who look forward to creating mayhem. They usually leave a path of destruction in private relationships, but hey, if they can take it to the streets, they will. These sorts of people infiltrate most organisations out there…. look at the bankers. Look at the governments. Where you look, bullies. Some are of the primitive, thuggish sort, others wear fancy suits. Same thing. Heaping vitriol on the Orange Order is to smear everyone who is in it, and that isn’t right.

      I certainly do not view such people as a mere annoyance. In fact, they are a massive threat *wherever* they rear their ugly heads. But the focus should be on them, not on discriminate smearing of the whole membership. And the letter from the police indicated that it is on policing those sorts of behaviors they want to put their efforts. Instead of trying to rain on the OO parade, trying to ban them and ruin it for those who do behave, it is in your power as citizens to insist that the bullies among them reap just rewards.

      1. steve says:

        What a bloody troll ….easy for you to call them an annoyance …. These cretins whole parade is designed around the celebration of the slavery , rape and genocide of my people . every single song is dedicated to the celebration of killing Irish people. If it was your people targeted you would song a different tune .. Typical liberal …. Preach about democracy and equality all you want , but the reality is of it was your family that had been murdered you would be protesting too … Sin cailin uafasach

      2. steve says:

        You should invite a load of militant Muslims to your estate to have parades to celebrate beheading British soldiers while your at it …. All in the name of equality … And make sure you clean up and don’t complain when they’re finished stoning your house and burning out your car ? Insurance will cover it ? Lol oh no , catholic houses that are on the parade routes can’t get insurance , can’t sell either …. But sure your tolerant …none of that will bother you 😉

    2. leavergirl says:

      Police Scotland reported no incidents following the event. (If anyone hears otherwise, please comment.)


    3. leavergirl says:

      Also, a good article here, and lots of comments.

      Like this one, for example:
      Martin McDonald, Ayrshire

      I have no great love of the Orange Order, viewing them as largely as outdated, irrelevant, comical and silly. However, I absolutely support their right to exist, to march and to assemble in public places.

      On those who wish to see views which do not align with theirs banned from public assembly and discourse, I feel they are far more dangerous to society than the Orange Order.

      1. Stuart says:

        Hi Leaver Girl, Welcome to the New Northern Ireland. You are wasting your time on these people. They are too consumed with hatred for any reasonable discussion.
        Steve, If you are in Ireland why are you commentating on a site that has nothing to do with you? Do you not have enough troubles of your own, some of which I think may be mental?
        Lochside, which decade are you living in? British Empire? I am sure Ghandi put a stop to that a long time ago? Also riot on the 19th September? I am pretty sure that Steve can tell you what a riot really looks like! I thought in Scotland that we were all Jock Thompsons Bairns? Well that was until the Referendum victory in September! I am still a Brit, get over it!

  27. ben madigan says:

    good morning Stuart – as you are still a Brit I am sure you agree NI is part of the UK and that we are all in this together.

    Since NI receives large, very large sums from the Treasury,
    what do you think of the social and economic costs of orangefest in NI and the damage it does to NI’s public image as it tries to attract tourists? Would you care to justify them?



  28. Fed up with the Lies and Propaganda of the London Media Industrial Complex says:

    I always find it amusing when apologists for the Orange Lodge say ” but it’s their culture !! ”

    Banging a big drum, causing a racket, getting drunk and urinating in the street isn’t culture.

    1. sandy ritchie says:

      You’ve just described a typical day oot for many old firm “fans” at an away match…ban the OF…now I’d sign up to that

    2. ben madigan says:

      indeed, and we have to remember that people produce “culture”.
      “Culture ” isn’t something people pluck out of thin air or buy in a supermarket.
      So Orange order members produce this type of “culture” and justify their exxistence because they have produced it-
      Sad isn’t it?

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