Senior Citizens for Indy

imagesBy Dave Coull

We have a referendum on independence for Scotland next year. It was suggested to me (by a young woman friend) that there should be some sort of initiative aimed at winning the votes of older folk for independence in that referendum. I think that’s right.

While the recent apparent doubling of support for independence amongst the 18 to 24 age group is very welcome, you can’t just rely on “the youth”. Reality is, 18-24s make up only a small percentage of the electorate. We need the support of folk of all ages. Us older folk should not be written off, we still have a lot to contribute. That being so, I have been thinking about what such an initiative amongst older folk could be like. Here are some thoughts on that.

As it happens I live in a Sheltered Housing Complex, with restricted entry, which makes it pretty impossible for any canvassers to get inside. But what it doesn’t do is to stop those of us who live inside the complex from canvassing. I’m not going to actively do this just now, but nearer the time I will. I will also raise, at our monthly tenants’ meeting, that we organise meetings, in such sheltered housing complexes as ours, with representatives from both the YES campaign and the “Better Together” campaign to answer questions.

It would probably be best if the YES representative is (1) not too young, and (2) not a member of any political party. So far as our own place is concerned, I would be one of the folk asking the most awkward questions of the “Better Together” representative, so I couldn’t be a speaker. I am confident that, in any such open discussion, our positive message can prevail over the negative message of keeping things as they are.

Another older person suggested to me that, rather than being just “old”, we are like good wine, or malt whisky, which matures with age. Which brought to my mind the television series “Last of the Summer Wine”. But if we called ourselves “Last of the Summer Wine for Independence”, the BBC would probably claim breach of copyright! So, what name would be appropriate for such a grouping? “Senior Ladies and Gentlemen For Independence”, maybe? Or “Independent-Minded Senior Citizens for Independence”? I quite like that last one. It stresses our personal independence of party politics and politicians. What do you think?

If there is to be such a grouping, I would make the following suggestions:

It should be restricted to folk over pension age. Folk younger than that may want to support the initiative, but they can’t actually be part of it, for the same reason as it would be inappropriate, and downright silly, for me to be part of any “Youth For Independence” initiative!

A face-to-face meeting should be held at some point, so that the grouping is not just something arranged on Facebook. It doesn’t matter if this face-to-face meeting is small. Many important initiatives have started with very few folk.

We can still count, as members, senior citizens who were unable to turn up for the face-to-face meeting but have expressed support for it.

After the face-to-face meeting, a press and media statement should be issued. This press and media statement should say honestly how many folk founded the group (even if this should be as few as 3 or 4!) but it should also say there will be no further statements on the numbers involved. We’re not talking about a political party. The aim is not to get members, but to get folk to vote YES in the referendum. The only number that matters is the number of folk who vote for or against independence in the referendum. We confidently predict that, in that only number that matters, a very large percentage of senior citizens will vote for independence.

We should call on all organisations concerned with senior citizens, be they local councils, tenants associations, etc etc, to facilitate meetings at which senior citizens in a locality can ask questions of folk from both the YES campaign and the Better Together campaign.

Those are some of my thoughts. It would be good to hear from other folk. What do you think?



Categories: Commentary

56 replies

  1. Great idea so how about calling yourselves – Seniors For Independence (SFI) ?
    Twitter hastag could be – #seniorsforindy
    Good luck with everything and here’s to a great independent future for all of us, young and not so young, in our great country.

  2. I agree totally, in order to win this vote we need YES votes from all age groups. The “older” generation are far more likely to tell you they are British, or perhaps like myself an ex-serviceman or woman, many of whom tend to be right of centre and pro union. I think, and I have no evidence to back this up that the older they get the less likely they are to be pro independence, my own mother (whom I reckon I can turn!) states that she couldn’t be bothered with all the upheaval at her age. We have to convince this generation of the benefits to themselves and to their offspring.

    • I don’t think folk have to choose between being Scottish and being British. My own son describes himself as both Scottish and British, and he is not only intending to vote for independence, he campaigns for independence as well. People can continue to think of themselves as British and yet vote for independence for Scotland. They will still be “British” in the sense that, geographically, we will still be part of a land mass called Great Britain, which is part of the North-East-Atlantic Archipelago called the British Isles, and they will still have some things in common with the people of the other countries of these isles. But politically Scotland will be independent.

      And while it’s true that many ex-service folks tend to be right-of-centre and pro-union, that is certainly not true of all. I’m ex-service myself, and it’s not true of me!

      It’s also true that, particularly amongst the over 80s, many feel like your mother that they couldn’t be bothered with all the upheaval at their age. But there’s going to be upheaval anyway. The UK is going to have more and more “austerity”, and both David Cameron and Nigel Farrage are promising their English supporters a referendum on leaving the EU, so things simply won’t stay as they are now REGARDLESS of how we vote in the referendum. The choice is between change for the better and change for the worse.

      • I’m amazed to see you swallowing this nonsense Dave. “British” is not a geographical descriptor. Ulstermen do not live in Britain nor do Falkland Islanders or Gibraltarians. It’s piolitical and always have been. In fact, I believe the occultist John Dee was one of the first to use it in a modern context of empire building. It is, and always will be a political term.

        Geography didn’t play much of a part in splitting Ireland up, or dumping Berwick on the wrong side of theTweed. Or when they drew the lines for Pakistan, Palestine, Iraq or most of Africa.

        The day Scots stop thinking of themselves as “British” is the
        day that they’ll truly be free. Independence starts in the mind, not in some civil servants’ office.

        The only reason the whole “British” thing exists is so that we could feel like equal exploiters in the Empire. I’m sure you’ll acucse me of splitting the vote or some such nonsense, but I’m sure other people are more than capable of that.

      • Contrary to what Ray Bell has claimed, my statement that people do not have to choose between being Scottish and being British is not “nonsense”. The only choice they have to make is between saying YES or saying NO to the question “Should Scotland be an independent country?”. I know a woman who was born and raised in France, and who, despite many years in Scotland, still speaks with a marked French accent. She will have a vote in our referendum. She doesn’t have to choose between a French and a Scottish identity, she only has to choose between YES or NO. I know a woman born and raised in the USA, who is a few years older than myself, and who intends to be at our inaugural meeting of Senior Citizens for Independence, and who, despite a great many years in Scotland, still speaks with an American accent. But she won’t have to choose an identity either. Like everybody else, she only has to choose between YES and NO. In fact, it wouldn’t matter if somebody considered themselves Martian, or Alpha Centaurian, or Betelgeusian. It would still be the case that the only choice they have to make in our referendum is between saying YES and saying NO.

  3. Well I am a pensioner and & have been a supporter of INDEPENDENCE for thsi country for as long as I can remember, I came from a Staunch Labour supporting family both parents changed their vote in their LATER years to support the SNP, I never ever thought I would see that day. So MIRACLES do happen & can still happen.

    • Kat Frac, I also come from a staunch Labour supporting family. My father actually met my mother through both of them being involved in the local ILP and involved in organising solidarity with the republican side in the Spanish Civil War. But my father always supported home rule for Scotland, and, totally disgusted with the increasingly-right-wing direction of the Labour Party, he voted SNP in the last election before he died. I am actually older now than he was when he died, he died at 67, I’m now 71. Would you be prepared to be a founder member of this Senior Citizens for Independence (or whatever we decide to call it)? So far, we haven’t settled where the first meeting is to be, that depends on where folk are and where they can manage to get to. But even if folk can’t manage to get along to the inaugural meeting, it is still very helpful if folk just say they want to be founder members of the group. By the way, I’m near Brechin, in Angus. My email address is davecoull@btinternet.com

  4. Good thinking, Dave. I’m not quite old enough to qualify, but I’ll certainly give whatever practical support I can.

  5. Although I can still distinctly remember having been young at one time, It would be quite ridiculous for me to be involved in some sort of “Youth For Independence” thing, no matter how strongly I might support such an initiative. However, equally, even if a young person supports some sort of “senior citizens for independence” thing, it would just be daft for them to actually be involved in it. Just as there has to be an upper age limit for “youth”, there has to be a lower age limit for “senior citizen”. I suggested pension age. But even that is a bit vague. My sister retired and collected her teacher’s pension at 55. Quite a lot of pension schemes will pay from 55. And the state retirement age is different for women from what it is for men. Two people have contacted me and suggested the age should be 55 plus. One of the two who suggested this writes “perhaps rather than the pension age being the decider, it could be inline with the ages for free Bus passes etc. or maybe 55+, as this seems to be the age that most pollsters will group the older voter and therefore some may naturally feel the need to group themselves per the polls.” What do other people think about this?

  6. So far, at least half a dozen older folk have said they are willing to be counted as “founder members” of a “senior-citizens-for-indy” group, whether or not they can manage to actually get along to the first meeting of such a group. And five of them have indicated that they definitely intend to try to get along to a first meeting more or less anywhere in Scotland.

    So, there will be such a meeting. and probably fairly soon. We need to sort out where. That depends on who responds, and where they are, and where they can get to.

    So………

    If there was to be a meeting to set up some sort of “Senior Citizens for Independence” (or whatever folk think might be a good idea to call such a group), would you try to come to that meeting if it was in

    (a) Aberdeen
    (b) Montrose
    (c) Dundee
    (d) Edinburgh
    (e) Glasgow
    (f) somewhere else?

    AND – very important – even if it wasn’t possible for you to get along to that first meeting, would you nevertheless be willing to be counted as a ‘founder member’ of the group?

    • ANYwhere will be fine for me, providing we don’t spend half the time discussing what to call ourselves, as a group, or as Scots and or British. My keyboard is about to implode having been made to type the B word.

  7. Dave, I believe this to be a fantastic idea! Unfortunately, I’m not quite old enough to be part of the movement but I’m sure there are MANY interested people out there who are. My da’, who died recently, would have loved to have been involved, I’m sure.

    As far as the name goes, what do you think of , ‘Elders for Independence’ ? It’s got a certain Celtic ring to it (culturally, not the team :-))

  8. This is a great idea….I’m sure John Swinburne would be a great asset
    he was the founder of the Scottish Senior Citizens Unity Party (SSCUP) and was that party’s sole representative in the Scottish Parliament from 2003 until 2007. According to Wikipedia he is also a director of motherwell Football club. Does anybody know how to contact him.

    • Aye, I remember John Swinburne being an MSP for the SSCUP. But I don’t know where he stands on independence. If he’s in favour of independence, then we certainly want him involved!

      • Dave

        The last time I heard John Swinburne on Call Kaye (just what are you supposed to call her) he was definitely in favour of Independence, he’s listed as a director of Motherwell F.C (I won’t hold that against him)

    • John Swinburne made some big noise, but was notoriously non-commital when asked about his position on the political spectrum. I can’t see him being any more committed to independence really.

      • That’s fine Ray ….I know what I heard John Swinburne saying …..just let Dave Coull contact John S. and let the man speak for himself!

      • I’m quite willing to get in touch with John Swinburne, as suggested by “ClydeBuilt”, and let the man speak for himself as to where he stands on independence for Scotland. So – do you have an address for him? Or an e-mail address? Or a phone number?

      • If that’s the case, go for it, but I mut admit I was disappointed in some of his responses to political questions in the past. The older demographic is a major feature of Scottish society, but I wasn’t quite sure what his opinion was on anything.

  9. Still fighting Dave. Well done.

    Some ideas:

    Parental appeal
    You can still respect the past but respect your children’s aspirations for the future too.

    You have the past but your children have the future.

    What do your children and grandchldren want? Remember, it is they who will have to live with the future.

    The best legacy you can leave – self respect for your children.

    Personal appeal
    Free Bus Passes, Free Prescriptions, Free Care for the Elderly keep them that way with a Free country.

    Stay Scottish – vote independence.

    We all like being independent, so do countries.

    Its official! If the no vote wins you will be English.

  10. I am 74 so I think I qualify on age grounds. I am not a member of a political party but I am involved with Scottish Labour for independence and Trade-unionists for independence. I would like to associate with old codgers for independence also. I am an ex-miner ex trade union official and Scots working class Oxford graduate. I live in Dunoon so would prefer meetings in Glasgow.

    • Hi Andy, you’re just a couple of years older than myself. I hope you do become involved in the proposed Old Codgers for Independence (or whatever we end up deciding to call it). I hope you will be able to attend the first meeting. It’s not settled yet where that first meeting is going to be. That depends on where most of the folk who respond positively to the idea are, and how mobile they are, and of course on where we can arrange a venue! But regardless of whether you are able to get to the first meeting or not, I hope you will count yourself as a “founder member”. Good for you being involved in Labour for Independence and Trade Unionists for Independence. When I suggested organising debates with the Better Together crowd at (for example) the sheltered housing complex where I live, and suggested it might be better if any YES speakers were not actually representing a political party, that just meant that (in my personal opinion, and not claiming to speak for anybody else) I think it might be easier to get across that the Yes campaign is non-party-political if the person speaking on behalf of the Yes campaign is not actually a member of a political party. So far as having political opinions is concerned, well, my own political opinions are a long way to the “left”. The Chief Executive Officer of one London construction company told the London region organisers of the Transport and General Workers Union “I’m prepared to recognise the TGWU, but there’s no way I will have Dave Coull back on site. What he has put in their site bulletin is not the policy of your union, it’s revolution”. Despite him saying that, after a 4 week strike, I was in fact back at work as a bricklayer on the site. By the time of the miners’ strike I had moved from London to Devon. But I was involved in solidarity with the miners, we invited striking miners from South Wales to come and speak, and we raised funds for them. By the way, do you think you could send me an e-mail, just so I have your contact details? My e-mail address is davecoull@btinternet.com

  11. Just one of those ideas that need to be done,great thinking.

  12. I’ve been enjoying this site for several months without participating but feel it is important to win votes regardless of age, sex, ethnicity, religion and so on.
    Indeed engage folks, groups whoever they are in this debate, especially those who may not be familiar with the internet being reliant on traditional media universally unhelpful to our cause. Lets inform, educate and encourage or at least plant a seed for real change to whoever is willing to listen, elderly neighbours, work colleagues and aquaintances.

  13. Auldies for Indy?
    Good luck with your campaign.

  14. Brilliant idea, don’t quite qualify myself, but the YES campaign’s approach so far has tended to means and ways of communication which are a tad youth centric. Not a follower of twitter or facebook, my laptop and various news sites are about as close as I get to hip and trendy technology. I know,for a fact that my father who is definitely in the right age group, hasn’t come anywhere closer to the digital age than the telly remote, yet in his working life was very politically active as a shop steward. Face to face meetings with senior citizens would carry far more weight.IMO.

    Wishing you very best of good fortune with this initiative Dave.

  15. I think I do qualify, sob!
    Would be interested in attending the meeting.

    • Well, I never expected to be a senior citizen either! But it;s something even us former-teenagers qualify for if we live long enoughI Hope you do become involved in the proposed Auld Fowk for Independence (or whatever we end up deciding to call it). I hope you do attend the first meeting. It’s not settled yet where that first meeting is going to be. That depends on where most of the folk who respond positively to the idea are, and how mobile they are, and of course on where we can arrange a venue. But regardless of whether you are able to attend the first meeting or not, I hope you will count yourself as a “founder member”. Those who are not able to attend that first meeting could nevertheless take part in things like deciding which name we choose, by communicating their vote on this. To discuss further about the venue, the name, etc etc, could you please e-,mail me. My e-mail address is davecoull@btinternet.com

  16. In response to their request for ‘Join a Group’, I have several times suggested a ‘Pensioners’ group in the ‘YES Scotland’ campaign. So far there has been no response. I have assumed that there weren’t enough of us to make it viable. So I would most certainly support this move. I live in Aberdeen and would be delighted to attend any meeting, as a founder or otherwise. My ‘Three score and ten’ are behind me, so I’m keen to get a move on!

    • Hi Ron, there are definitely enough older folk interested in forming a group of older folk for independence. So far, around a dozen senior citizens from lots of parts of Scotland have said they will join such a group. As far as I’m concerned, they can all consider themselves as founder members. How many of them will get along to an inaugural meeting of the group remains to be seen. Although we might all have bus passes, there are older folk whose mobility is restricted. So far, it still isn’t settled where the first meeting will be. You’re in Aberdeen, I’m about 35 miles south of Aberdeen, so a meeting in Aberdeen would be okay as far as I’m concerned. But we have folk who could only make it to a meeting in Glasgow, and we have folk who could only make it to a meeting in Edinburgh. It’s a question of trying to sort out where would be the best venue for this first meeting as far as most of those who have expressed interest in attending are concerned. AFTER that first meeting, there could later on be meetings in other places of course. But I do think it’s essential that we do have an initial face-to-face meeting of as many of us as possible. It would be good if you could e-mail me. My e-mail address is davecoull@btinternet.com

  17. Regarding a name for the group, how about ‘Mature Citizens for Independence’, or ‘Mc Indys’ for short?

  18. I would be very happy to be a member of any group formed. Meeting in Dundee would be handy for me .

    • Well if you would be very happy to be a member of any group formed, moraglennie, then consider yourself a founder member of the group (whatever we decide to call it). There have been positive responses to this idea from older folk as far apart as Findhorn (on the Moray Firth) and the Isle of Bute (in the Firth of Clyde). Dundee would be about equally distant from both of these locations, and it would be quite handy for me as well. So it’s certainly a possible venue. On the other hand, we have folk interested who can only get to a meeting in Edinburgh, and folk interested who can only get to a meeting in Glasgow. Maybe we’re going to have to try to arrange a vote on where the first meeting should be held!

  19. Auld bggrs for independence — only kiddng

    Actually, only a fool would write-off DC

    I think this is a great move Dave and ifyou’re up for it, you should effort to make this national.

    I actually like ‘Senior Citizens for Independence’. I think that is respectful, open. It also will encourage the BetterTogether mob to craete their own version which should produce a bunch of post WWII flag-waving, days of empire nostalgic types who should be easy to destroy in argument.

    • My message here on Bella Caledonia appeared also on Facebook, and I also sent it by private message to a five or six folk, and right from the start the intention was that it should be “national”, Stevie. Like I said, even if the “inaugural meeting” only had 3 or 4 folk present in person, if we know there’s the support of others who weren’t able to get there due to restricted personal mobility or whatever, that would be enough for going ahead, many great things have started with very few folk. As it happens, it looks like we may be able to do rather better than 3 or 4 for starters, which is a bonus.

  20. What you are correctly identifying is the evidence that we need to form activist goups representative of various demographics.

    I don’t buy the jump in support in youth until I see 2 more polls confirming the support and then another 2 verifying that. 5 polls and I take an average,

    With women, we need to get in there and Women For Independence isn’t doing that sufficiently yet.

    Groups for all demographics are required

  21. Hello from Stirling, Dave. I agree whole-heartedly with what you’re proposing – something which we really need to do, since our age-group do seem to be the least enthusiastic for independence. I’m already involved in Yes Stirling but would be keen to support a pensioners’ group. Lots of good suggestions posted for a title for a group – how about a sub-title: Yes – Young at Heart?

    Jim

    • Hi Jim, at present we are still trying to sort out where would be best for an initial meeting of this Senior Citizens for Independence (or whatever we end up naming it as). It depends partly on where the folk who are keen to be involved live, and where at least enough of them can get to (bearing in mind that some of them have problems with personal mobility). I think you’re the first person from Stirling. Given the number of folk from the North East of Scotland, and the numbers from Glasgow and Edinburgh, who have shown an interest in attending our meeting, my own thinking is that Perth might be quite a central place. And quite reachable from Stirling too. As for “young at heart” – personally, I’ll always be young. It says so on my birth certificate, my pension documents, etc………(signed, David Young Coull)

  22. In February 2005, the “Independence First” group was formed to campaign for a referendum on independence. I booked the smaller meeting room of the Mechanics Hall in Brechin for the first meeting. Twelve people showed up for that meeting in Brechin, including two from Fraserburgh, two from Edinburgh, and four from Glasgow. At that time, the Mechanics Hall didn’t have suitable disabled access. It does now.

    Quite a lot of folk have said that they would like to attend the first meeting of Senior Citizens for Independence (or whatever we all agree to call it). Given the geographical spread of those who have indicated they would like to attend, ideally, PERTH might be a suitable “central” point for a meeting. But, so far as I know, we don’t have anybody in Perth who could organise a meeting there!

    In fact, so far, although quite a lot of folk have said they would like to come to the meeting, the only folk who have expressed a willingness to organise the meeting are Hugh Kerr in Edinburgh, and myself. If anybody else wants to prove me wrong about that, by volunteering to organise the meeting in their own locality, please speak up now! But if the only folk volunteering to organise the meeting are myself and Hugh, then, the meeting is likely to either be somewhere pretty local for Hugh, or somewhere pretty local for me. Hugh thinks he can get a lot of Edinburgh older folk to come along to a meeting for the specific purpose of forming Senior Citizens for Independence (or whatever we decide to call it). So that could be a reason for holding the meeting in Edinburgh.

    However, in my opinion, in order to maintain the momentum that has been generated, we do need to organise this soon.

    I think we should aim at having a meeting in 3 weeks’ time. Either Saturday the 16th of March or Sunday the 17th of March. I would say from 2pm to 4 pm.

    I have told Hugh that, if he thinks it would be possible to organise a meeting in Edinburgh for one of those days, then I think he should just go ahead with that. But if it isn’t possible to organise a meeting in Edinburgh for one of those days, then we have to investigate other possible venues.

    We will of course seek to ensure that any venue has disabled access, disabled toilet, etc. We can also try to arrange lifts for folk who need transport to the meeting.

  23. Senior Citizens For Independence (SCFI), put it another way you have got (SC/FI). Which would be a bit of send up to those people that suggest that everyone at pension age or a certain generation cannot possibly support independence in other words Science Fiction.. Just thinking aloud.

    • As we are in fact senior citizens and we do in fact support independence that is really the only response we need to anybody stupid enough to suggest senior citizens supporting independence is “science fiction”. However, that’s just one of several possible names for the group, nothing is decided, and nothing will be decided before we have our first meeting. If folk actually think the “science fiction” thing is worth bothering about, there would be a very simple solution, just cut out the “c”: Seniors for Independence.

  24. Agree on the name – straight forward and clear – see very first response. Need to move on though.

  25. Members of this group should be aware of the following highly relevant article which excellently presents the facts and consequences on pensions, one of the few big scary sticks the Us have not yet hsf sufficiently debunked.

    http://wingsland.podgamer.com/rainy-day-blues/#comment-308562

  26. As it now looks definite that we will be having a face-to-face meeting of Senior Citizens for Independence (or whatever we decide to call it) within the next 3 weeks or so, I have set up a Facebook page for discussion regarding this, and to publicise our forthcoming inaugural meeting. The web address for the Facebook page is http://www.facebook.com/groups/494740820588263/494742330588112/?comment_id=494745090587836&notif_t=group_comment

  27. Mon yoursel Dave Coull! Oldies for Indy? (Ach, I see John McCall has beaten me to it!)

    If you are getting retired speakers, you could do a lot worse than Dennis Canavan.

    • I don’t think we’re really looking for “speakers” for our initial meeting, Craig P. That initial meeting will be more concerned with the practical business of getting the group set up in the first place, and, while of course everybody who shows up for the meeting will be welcome to express their views, I don’t think it will be a case of us sitting there listening to some “guest speaker”, but rather of everybody participating in discussion. Having said that, Dennis Canavan is certainly a senior citizen, and he is certainly for independence, and he does have a lot of relevant experience, and he is the chair or some such thing of the YES Campaign, so of course it would be great if he could come along to our meeting! But I don’t know how to go about contacting him! If you do, then please do invite him to take part in Senior Citizens for Independence!

  28. Completely agree Ray. Being both Briyysh and Scots always struck me as being a bit oxymoronish.

    • I wrote a piece last year on this very subject. You might find it interestingish. – http://bit.ly/LSDRZL

    • Just read Peter A Bell’s linked article, and wish we could hear more of this discussion right across the blogs – ‘identity’ is such a fraught subject, many are fearful of addressing it at all, let alone in any depth. It’s good to hear someone with such a clear awareness of ‘who he is’ stating-so in terms which few could object to.
      It’s a facet of the ‘Independence’ debate which is, right now, lacking substance – quite surprising really, when you consider the topic in question.
      In any case, this thread is inspiring. Best wishes to all involved in the inaugural meetings.

  29. IMPORTANT: The first meeting of Senior Citizens for Independence (or whatever we decide to call it) will be held at the Edinburgh Quakers place, the Friends Meeting House, 7 Victoria Terrace, Edinburgh EH1 2JL, from 2pm to 4pm on Saturday March 16th.

  30. Vote aye, afore we die.
    Its got a certain ring to it.
    All the best in your endeavors Dave.

  31. Can I ask you and Ray to take this elsewhere? If you’ve got personal matters you need to resolve can you do it somewhere else? Thanks

  32. I’ve removed a whole heap of posts from this thread including ones which make some good points. The original idea from DC is a good one. Bella doesnt have a full time moderator so can we ask all contributors to play the ball rather than the man?

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