2007 - 2020

If You Have a Racist Friend

For the last month or so BC has been annoying people on Twitter and elsewhere by continually bringing up the issue of linking to, and or #ff (Follow Friday-ing bloggers). So who are we talking about and why are we doing this?

The Scottish independence movement is dominated by the left, the centre-left, and now the green-left coalescing around a set of political and cultural norms and assumptions. Amongst them is the idea that we are all Jock Tamson’s Bairns, a mixture and proud of it. Close to this is the idea of Scotland as a country with a distinct sense of the importance of social justice, in particular this is expressed by the policy put forward that anyone can become a Scot on independence, and further backed-up by the differing policies on immigration (frequently overridden and ignored by the Brit State).  Commentators would call some of these assumptions ‘romantic myths’ and point to the wide spread of these attitudes still today. A more positive view might suggest that the complete failure of the far-right and the BNP, the ‘S’ DL and others  to  create any foothold in Scotland is precisely due to the ongoing aspirations for an open, multicultural society that still lie at the heart of Scottish identity.

The argument has two more key aspects. Having travelled the world, colonised, settled and integrated in every corner of the globe, having suffered from the clearances and ‘economic migration’ how can we turn around and offer anything less than a welcome to people from other places trying to make a life in Scotland? And finally, Scottish Nationalism has always been predicated firmly on a belief in internationalism that probably springs from the realisation that as a small nation we are never going to dominate (nor aspire to as the French, the British, the Russian or the Americans). If your small and insignificant it pays to respect other peoples cultures.

So we shouldn’t be giving a platform to or promoting racists, particularly those who shame the independence movement by writing one day about the merits of home rule and the next on the colour or creed of people coming to or resident in this country.

Dark Lochnagar is one such blog, Sub Rosa another.  Dark Lochnagar thinks  the Milibands are part of a Marxist-Jewish conspiracy. Sub Rosa supports Angela Merkels view that multiculturalism is dead (‘It had to be said’) They write: “The belief that vast movements of people across the globe is somehow the way to go for the human race is madness. It is the way to create tensions, jealousies and animosity and implant them into a society on a grander scale than when “home” was where the tribe were, once upon a time.” Well that’s clear enough.

Dark Lochnagar writes about a Migrationwatch report: “Don’t say you weren’t warned and as the immigrant population explodes, the ‘BRITONS’ will be gradually displaced in a mish-mash of cultures which will obliterate our own British, white European one.  My only consolation is that I won’t be here to see it and neither will my children, because I don’t have any.” Read it here. Well that’s a consolation.

Why is this important? Thirty-eight people have died in asylum- and immigration-related deaths in the last 18 months across Europe. Dungavel remains. While we have idiots like Labours Michael McCann, while we have the far-right operating amongst the orange disorder, Sarkozy expelling the Roma and a German leader like Merkel spouting forth, we are in dangerous times. While we remain tied to the racist British State its essential we make clear a different approach. It’s vital that here in Scotland we articulate a progression vision for our country.

You can write what you like (provided it doesn’t actually promote violence). And I’d defend your right to write things I totally disagree with. But this is a call for people to disassociate themselves from these and others, de-link to them, don’t #ff them, stop promoting them and get on with promoting the cause of an open democratic and outward looking Scotland.

At Bella we will link to people we disagree with, we will invite people with differing views to have a guest editorial, we will engage with people with widely different perspec tives. What we won’t do is give a platform for racists.

Comments (58)

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  1. Vronsky says:

    I used to be a regular over at subrosa’s, but gave up a long time ago as the blog drifted increasingly to the right, and then straight through the right and on into outright loonyism. It’s tiresome to post comments when you disagree with everything that’s being said: time to leave. From the noble sacrifice of our ‘heroes’ (murdering children in Iraq and Afghanistan) to climate change denial, subrosa’s got a pretty full hand of jokers.

    I’ve never read Dark Lochnagar, so can’t comment, but thanks for the warning. The idea of racial dilution via immigration is doing the viral rounds, and there’s all sorts of spurious arithmetic out there about how we’ll all be speaking Arabic in a couple of years if we don’t arrest the surging tide of bloody foreigners. We’re all foreigners here – if you don’t believe me, get your DNA checked – I dare you.

    As a footnote, I’ve often canvassed for the SNP and rather gained the impression that recent immigrants, including English, are more likely to vote SNP than native Scots. They’re immune to the ‘cringe’ arguments, I think, because they don’t identify with the target myth.

  2. Drew Murray says:

    Oddly enough I have never seen you argue against these bloggers on their blogs? While DL’s flirting with the Protocols of Zion is a wee bit OTT, Subrosa’s disenchantment with mass immigration is surely a rational response to a failed, discredited, and corrupt capitalist policy.

    Your assertion that “anyone can become a Scot on independence” is rather troubling. Do you mean that seriously? That upon gaining independence Scotland is going to dissolve its borders and allow free entry and the right to citizenship to anyone from anywhere? What a quaint idea.

    I get the impression that socialism in Scotland has been taken over by starry-eyed teenagers with no sense what-so-ever.

    1. bellacaledonia says:

      Thanks Vronsky, Indy.
      I’ll let Mhairi speak for herself but in terms of her assertion that ‘“anyone can become a Scot on independence”, I’m assuming she is referring to the fact that citizenship is defined by being resident in the country, not the basis of ethnicity. This isn’t the same as saying there will be no immigration / migration policy whatsoever.

      The Fresh Talent initiative (http://www.scotlandistheplace.co.uk/stitp/276.html) is a clear reminder that Scotland has very different national needs in terms of workforce and population, clealry very different from other parts of the UK. Our inability to have a distinct autonomous policy here is damaging.

      I wouldn’t see any benefit in going on to the blogs of people who’s vision is rooted in racism and arguing with them, that would be a complete waste of time, so no, I haven’t been spending a lot of time discussing anti-semitism with Dark Lochnagar.

      1. Drew Murray says:

        “The Fresh Talent initiative (http://www.scotlandistheplace.co.uk/stitp/276.html) is a clear reminder that Scotland has very different national needs in terms of workforce and population, clearly very different from other parts of the UK. Our inability to have a distinct autonomous policy here is damaging.”

        I agree but would hope that Scotland wouldn’t use the Irish (and English) model of using mass migration to fuel growth.

  3. Indy says:

    Dark Lochnagar’s blog is literally sickening while Subrosa allows the most vile coments to be published by people who are clearly outright fascists. Maybe she believes that’s about free speech, I don’t know, but she is responsible for the content of what is published on her blog. If she allows fascists to comment then people will draw certain conclusions from that. I don’t read either of those blogs now.

    1. Keri says:

      After being sickened by their racist commentary, both on Twitter and on their blogs, and their responses to my objection to it, I quickly dropped both followers. DL openly wrote about support for the BNP in Scotland, although when questioned about it, I noticed the quote I referred to was removed.

  4. Drew Murray says:

    Vronsky: “It’s tiresome to post comments when you disagree with everything that’s being said: time to leave.”

    Surely that is the time to stay and argue your corner? I get tired of reading blogs where everyone agrees with each other and much prefer the cut and thrust of a good debate. The balkanization of the blogosphere has created fertile ground for nasty ideologies to flourish – ideologies that must be challenged at the source rather than the safety of a mutual admiration blog.

  5. Drew Murray says:

    Bella, what – no thank you to me? Don’t take the huff just because I challenge. Yes, I know what Mhairi meant, but was pulling her up for shoddy writing that left her message rather vague and easily misinterpreted.

  6. JohnB says:

    I’ve almost given up on Subrosa; my fellow SNP supporting flatmate can’t be bothered to read her blog at all these days, particularly since she’s drifted well into Daily Mail territory and she is willing to post far-right, racist, homophobic articles from other blogs.

    I doubt her attitude towards comments are a matter of free speech: I wrote a comment about what it’s like to suffer homophobic bullying after she wrote an article complaining about public money being paid to Stonewall. My comment disappeared. 🙁

    She will frequently write something such as “I’m all for equality but…” (such as on the Stonewall article)

    Then in another piece recently: “Another small point is that Ed Miliband voted strongly in favour of gay marriages and civil partnerships. A strange decision from someone who doesn’t appear to favour hetrosexual marriage isn’t it.” (an article about Ed Milliband having not yet registered himself as father to his partner’s children, and the fact Mr Milliband’s partner isn’t called Mrs. Milliband.)

    It’s a shame, her blog was rather good when I first started subscribing to it on RSS.

    Cheers,
    JohnB

  7. Drew Murray says:

    subrosa said…

    “There is a place for immigrants in every country William but there has to be a balance.

    I do disagree with Scotland opening its doors to all and sundry. We need professional people or those who want a good education then to live here. Unfortunately many do come for an education but go back home and take their skills with them. Unfortunately for us really but very good for them and their country.”

    How intolerant!

  8. Subrosa says:

    Oh dearie me. Here we go again with those who call me racist. Fair enough, call me what you will, but Angela Merkel has every right to say what she did. Obviously the end of my post wasn’t read so I’ll reiterate it here:

    ‘Her challenge now is to say what action she intends to take to ensure integration. She has to appear to be fair and tolerant as well as understanding yet firm. A difficult balancing act indeed.’

    If you’d taken the trouble to read the whole post you would realise it wasn’t in the least racist as I was one of those immigrants in her country for some years.

    Have a read of this study and you’ll see how disadvantaged children of ethnic minorities are because the families won’t integrate:

    http://www.cls.ioe.ac.uk/news.asp?section=000100010003&item=614

    It involves children from Scotland so it should be of interest. We’re letting immigrant children down because we’re not prepared for their integration any more than they are prepared to integrate.

    It’s easy to shout ‘racist’ when you don’t have a solution isn’t it? At least I’ve tried to give one insofar as we need to address the issue and make preparations before we have ‘open house’.

    1. bellacaledonia says:

      I’m not sure the fact that you used to live in Germany is a coherent argument that your not a racist.

      You havent ‘provide solutions’ you’ve just expressed prejudices based on what, the tide of immigrants in Dundee?!

      1. Drew Murray says:

        “I’m not sure the fact that you used to live in Germany is a coherent argument that your (sic) not a racist.”

        To suggest that someone is racist and then require them to prove that they’re not is despicable.

  9. Vronsky says:

    “Surely that is the time to stay and argue your corner?”

    I was guiltily aware of a dishonourable fatigue setting in (desertion in the face of the enemy) but you cannot debate interior decoration with the colour blind. It’s not so much that nobody round at subrosa’s was interested in considering a contrary point of view, nobody was capable – curiosity: 0%, certitude: 100%. That’s a church, not a debating hall.

    Pity. Subrosa usually came across as personally likeable.

    1. Drew Murray says:

      Aye, I see your point Vronsky. I gave up blogging because I couldn’t get people to argue/debate. I posted lots of contrary articles but was either met with silence or a righteous denunciation immediately followed by silence.

      I see Bella becoming a kirk (this is a Scottish site after all) – with an intolerance for contrary views.

  10. Vronsky says:

    “I see Bella becoming a kirk (this is a Scottish site after all) – with an intolerance for contrary views.”

    Then heed your own advice – stay and argue.

    I’m sorry your own blog died for want of reaction, but consider yourself in respectable company. Ian Hamilton QC is an old buddy, and shortly after creating his own blog he emailed me, anxiously noting that his posts received no comments. He gets a reaction now, but it took a long time. No idea why – people a bit intimidated by his authority, perhaps? There’s a weird chemistry that makes a busy blog – and of course it’s not always a nice thing – look at the egregious Guido Fawkes.

    This one just seems to be taking off now, doesn’t it (or have I not been watching)? Maybe I just love any blog that links to Christie Books. Check out the movies on that site!

    1. Drew Murray says:

      I will Vronsky, I will. As a hard arsed socialist (with a large streak of anarchy in mah belly) I actually believe that folks have a right to be heard rather than dictated to by pseudo-intellectual, socialist poseurs:o) And if those folks fear right wing government immigration policies are wrong headed, then those fears should be addressed honestly rather than by spouting platitudes and denouncing those fears as racism.

  11. Drew Murray says:

    I look forward to seeing how this thread develops. I rather enjoyed that – reminded me of the old days on the Herald threads. Alas, Ah maun work fur a livin and so farewell for now.

  12. bellacaledonia says:

    ‘To suggest that someone is racist and then require them to prove that they’re not is despicable.’

    We didn’t suggest, we observed. We are not alone and have received many messages of support.

    ‘I see Bella becoming a kirk with an intolerance for contrary views.’

    We have a tolerance for contrary views we just dont want to be associated with them or help promote them.

  13. Drew Murray says:

    “We didn’t suggest, we observed.” Oof!!!

    Hello … Hello … Is this the Tea Party???

    Cioa Bella

  14. An Immigrant in Scotland says:

    I do not normally take strident stands on Scottish or UK politics because I feel, as an immigrant and not a citizen, it would be discourteous for me to take political stands on local issues. I am more than happy to discuss international politics as I feel that as a global citizen, I have that right. I feel that the Scots need to figure out for themselves what they want to do.

    With that said, I sometimes feel rather under attack from politicians and the media in the UK. I thank whatever you want to believe in that I am an immigrant here rather than where I come from. I did not come to Scotland to mooch off your public welfare systems. However, I do really like the NHS. I came originally to gain an education. I made friends here and I have a “Scottish Family” with whom I spend most of my holidays (both UK and my own). Sometimes, I even feel like I have integrated. Although, my accent will always give me away as not Scottish.

    On the idea of integration, I would really like someone to define the term for me. I still like my national sports and I like to share them with people here. I still pay attention to politics from my country of origin and I spend a good amount of time explaining it to my UK friends. Does this mean that I have not integrated?

    Anyway, I just wanted to inject some humanity into your discussions of immigration. Sometimes, in all the heated debate, the human becomes lost in the shuffle and strawmen and stereotypes dominate the floor.

    1. Drew Murray says:

      Being an immigrant myself may I say that integration is about accepting the host countries peculiarities, and eccentricities without criticism or demand for change; it’s about learning the language and joining in discussion on their terms without constantly referring to how things were done in the “old” country; mostly it’s about marrying into the tribe.

      Remaining culturally, linguistically, and genetically separate from the host population is colonization not integration. See – simples.

  15. Subrosa says:

    ‘We have a tolerance for contrary views we just dont want to be associated with them or help promote them.’

    Tolerant? Yet you say you ‘observed’ I was a racist in this morning’s post because I dared to write about a remark the German Chancellor gave to her own party at the weekend? I didn’t condone her comment but I said she had every right to say it.

    I too have received many message of support regarding this dreadful slur on my character and one which is completely unfounded. Perhaps if you got out more, you would know many people, who support an independent Scotland, are concerned that no detailed policy has yet been muted. Then, as one of my supporters (and an SNP voter) said, ‘We don’t voice our opinions much. We’ll be labelled racists’. Such a shame that the far left of the SNP are now calling the shots and intimidating others.

    Isn’t it sad that people cannot discuss this issue without using the word racist inappropriately.

    Good to see you’re well Vronsky.

  16. Bella or whatever your name is, I happened on your site because Drew was good enough to leave a link on my Facebook page. To say I am raging is an understatement. You have never commented on my blog and if you had ever been on it, you would know that I cover a lot of subjects not just immigration.

    What gives you the right to label me as a racist, having never argued your corner on my blog? I answer EVERY one of the comments, I get and I have never moderated a comment, I didn’t agree with. I have nothing against multi-racism, I do however have an argument with multi-culturalism. Immigrants to this country, should wherever possible, adopt the host culture of Scotland. Instead many of them live in enclaves, some not being able to speak English, despite living here for 20 years. I have first hand experience if what I am talking about. Have you ever been in Blackburn, Bolton or many other cities in England that imported immigrants from the Indian sub-continent to work in the mills? Don’t you realise that Pakistan and Zimbabwe are shitholes because they’re full of Pakistanis and Zimbabweans? Do you see mass migration of whites from Europe to, for instance, India?

    As usual you and your left wing pals attack from the dark without having the confidence in your arguments to put your case forward legitimately. I would have thought that having ruined the economy and the country, Britain, with your left wing crap over the last 13 years, you and your like would have been showing some humility. Oh and BTW, my post tonight was on Globalisation. Anybody interested in that can come across and put their case.

    1. Keri says:

      Attack from the dark? You are the one who hides behind a pseudonym.

      1. Adam Tanner says:

        Keri,

        You killed DL’s points stone dead with that.

  17. Wilhelm says:

    The sole purpose of multiculturlism is designed to attack and rot the heart and soul of a nation. Its DELIBERATE, INTENTIONAL and MALOVOLENT by liebour and the liberals.

    It was thought up by CULTURAL MARXISTS in the 1920s at the Frankfurt School, a marxist think tank.

    The Marxists were very upset that the working classes of Europe instead of uniting and revolting against the upper classes instead fought for their own nations.

    The Cultural Marxists had to some how break the link between the nation and its ethnicity. The marxists fled nazi Germany and set up in America where they infiltrated the universities.

    For a thousand years, the ancient nations of Europe had been Christian, homogeneous and with traditional values. French people living in France, Germans living in Germany, Scots living in Scotland. This was the orthodoxy and everyone was happy.

    The Cultural Marxists who wanted to set up a communist state had to destroy Christianity and the nation state first. In the 1960s they came up with multiculturalism and mass immigration to undermine, subvert and ultimately destroy the nations of Europe. This led to Cultural Revolution of the 1960s.

    Cultural marxists use the made up words of ” political correctness” and the tedious ”racism card”
    to restrict people from saying what they see which is a full scale third world invasion of our nations by Africans and muslims brought in by socialists and liberals .

    The basics of Cultural Marxism

    Cultural Marxism. Their aim was to subvert all the institutions by a long march through the culture. The new battleground for Marxist thinkers became the culture, starting with the traditional family and completely engulfing churches, schools, media, entertainment, civic organizations, literature, science, and history.

    All of these things must be radically transformed and the social and cultural order gradually turned upside-down with the new proletariat placed in power at the top.

    1) The creation of Racialism offences

    2) Continual change to create confusion

    3) The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children

    4) Huge immigration to destroy identity and create tension

    5) The undermining of schools and teachers authority

    6) The promotion of excessive drinking

    7) Emptying the Churches

    8) An unreliable legal system with bias against the victims of crime

    9) Dependency on state or state benefits

    10) Control and dumbing down of media and TV

    11) The attack on fathers and encouraging the breakdown of the family

    12) Multi-Culturalism

    13) The creation of trauma through injustice

    14) Destruction of the monetary system

    15) Political Correctness

    1. Drew Murray says:

      My dear Wilhelm how is Aberdeen these days? I fear I must disabuse you of a misapprehension. Your contention that mass immigration is a Marxist plot can easily be refuted by the simple application of “Cui Bono”- who benefits?

      Well it certainly wasn’t the workers at Killingholme – the UK’s third largest oil refinery – who were not allowed to apply for maintenance jobs there, but had to languish on benefits while the trans-national company that owns the plant contracted to have foreign workers shipped in to do the work.

      The modern phenomenon of mass immigration is the child of neo-liberal capitalism and benefits the moneyed elite. And while they enjoy the fruits: wage restraint, higher demand, the dilution of sovereign control – the workers pay the cost: overburdened infrastructure and services, greater pollution and congestion.

      Immigration initially took the form of individuals and families coming to work and settle in the host country. This worked fine for a while. Immigrants were marginalized, were unlikely to rock the boat, would accept wage rates and working conditions the indigenous population would object to. But after years of living in the host nation they were apt to adopt local attitudes to working and living conditions. So clearly the utility of immigration is time limited and has to be reinvented as “mass” immigration.

      Successive waves of immigrants are now imported undermining workers ability to organize and win concessions from employers and, as the numbers imported soar, so does worker insecurity with the loss of negotiating power. But even this isn’t enough for neo-liberal capitalism. As demonstrated at Killingholme – transient armies of workers can free the employer from local and national control and the imposition of, to them, intrusive standards and regulations.

      And this is why the neo-liberals are so anxious to have the Doha round of the GATS negotiations ratified. Under “mode four” of this agreement trans-national corporations will be able to import labour, not just from the poorer parts of the EU, but from anywhere on the globe. And when that happens all control of immigration will have been ceded to trans-national corporations.

  18. Phil Hunt says:

    So we shouldn’t be giving a platform to or promoting racists, particularly those who shame the independence movement by writing one day about the merits of home rule and the next on the colour or creed of people coming to or resident in this country.

    Creed comes from latin credo meaning “I believe”: you’re saying we shouldn’t discriminate against people based on their beliefs. But you also say you’re against racism, which is of course a belief. You can’t have it both ways: either people should be anathematised based on the their beliefs, or they shouldn’t.

    Let’s not beat around the bush and talk in euphemisms. The problem here is Muslims. Now, there are plenty of Muslims who hold modern liberal democratic values, who are decent, civilised people, and I have no problem with them. But there are also plenty of Muslims who want to live in the dark ages, who think sharia law should trump secular law, that a woman’s testimony should count less than a man’s in court, that Muslims shouldn’t marry non-Muslims, and who are bigotted against gays. These people’s beliefs are such that I don’t want them living anywhere near me, for fear that they will contaminate the political atmosphere. In fact their beliefs are not a million miles away from the BNP and SDL who you (correctly, IMO) abhor.

  19. Indy says:

    I can’t be bothered trawling through Subrosa’s blog to find examples of racist comments that she has made – they are there but they are not particularly bad and are usually based on some story that she has read in the Daily Mail. So I don’t have any particular issues with Subrosa herself. But some of the comments she allows are utterly beyond belief – all kinds of vile comments about Jews and so on, crazy stuff – and she has guest posts from people who are making overtly racist arguments. So if you are an SNP blogger don’t read her, don’t link to her because she certainly brings the party into disrepute by association.

    1. bellacaledonia says:

      Thanks Indy, this is really our point exactly (your final line).

      We know we have put ourselves on the line for publishing these criticisms but we think its better flushing out these people and their real views (thanks for this Wilhelm and Dark Lochnagar, any doubts about who and what you really are now explicit).

      As Davie says: ‘Perhaps he’s just a silly wee boy on an ego trip – perhaps not.’ There is certainly a history of disinformation against the independence movement and a certain amount of covert stuff too.

      Anyway – hopefully we can move on from this soon and start talking in a positive way about the future we DO want to build as an alternative to the shock doctrine coming our way and about to be announced by a cabinet of the filthy-rich (of the 29 Ministers entitled to attend Cabinet meetings, 23 have assets and investments estimated to be worth more than £1million).

  20. Highlander says:

    “For a thousand years, the ancient nations of Europe had been Christian, homogeneous and with traditional values. French people living in France, Germans living in Germany, Scots living in Scotland. This was the orthodoxy and everyone was happy.”

    Was that the thousand years before or after the Roman invasions? The Anglo-Saxon invasions? The Viking invasions? The Norman invasions? I could go on…

    I am always interested that individual people are blamed for moving to try and improve their lot in life. They are all lumped under the scare-mongering immigration tab. It must be a big decision to leave your own country, with or without your family, and move to a completely different culture. Whether for economic reasons or, as in many cases, to escape persecution, it is an upheaval most would not want to have to endure. To then face hostility on arrival is pitiful.

    But it never seems to occur to people that governments, as branches of capitalism, are complicit in immigration precisely because it serves capitalism. Not because they are socialists or liberals.

    If you can pay people less and people will gladly come and live here to earn less then that creates a wage market that you can drive down. All the better if those people are immigrants because you can use that fact to divide and conquer the wage earners, i.e. the working class, who revert to in-fighting rather than facing up to the ruling class.

    The Labour party of the last 13 years provided more than enough evidence to show that it is as far removed from socialism as the Conservatives are. If they supported immigration then that is because it supported the system whose interests they represented – capitalism.

    Now that we have the Con-Dem coalition we can expect the same. More so in fact as they make no pretence of being the party of the working class. Their slash and burn deficit reduction policies will affect all working class people, immigrants or otherwise. But with 20 millionaires out of a Cabinet of 23, you can be sure that the interests of capital will be well represented at the heart of government.

    1. Drew Murray says:

      Well said Highlander.

  21. Davie Park says:

    Must admit I’m taken aback by Dark Lochnagar’s blog. It’s a username I’m familiar with and have seen on nationalist-leaning blogs, news-sites etc. I can only hope that he/she is not associated in any way with the SNP.
    The blog post you refer to is pure poison. Particularly striking is the assertion that “Pakistan and Zimbabwe are shitholes because they’re full of Pakistanis and Zimbabweans”. Ah! The very sentiment that inspired the benevolent Brits to ‘help out’ in days of empire.
    I feel sullied merely quoting it. In fact, it seems designed to elicit maximum shock and revulsion. It’s a line he used as part of a comment on his own piece – so he seems keen to promote it.
    I can see that ‘choice’ line adorning the pages of The Sun or The Daily Mail (perhaps that’s the intention). I can see the headline now:

    “Nasty Nats Reveal The True Face of SNP.”

    Hmm. Must admit I’m very suspicious here. Perhaps he’s just a silly wee boy on an ego trip – perhaps not.

    P.S. For the record, I’d describe myself as centre / centre-right on the political spectrum. I’m NOT a socialist, nor a ‘bleeding-heart liberal’. I also believe that multiculturalism can be problematic BUT is ultimately beneficial to a nation.

    1. I have read Dark Lochnagar’s blog a few times and as the son of an immigrant, I have called him out a few times on his remarks, but I think to be fair to him, you may have misinterpretted his remarks above.

      “Have you ever been in Blackburn, Bolton or many other cities in England that imported immigrants from the Indian sub-continent to work in the mills? Don’t you realise that Pakistan and Zimbabwe are shitholes because they’re full of Pakistanis and Zimbabweans?”

      I thought that the “they” Dark Lochnagar refers to are not the nations of Pakistan and Zimbabwe, but the towns like Blackburn and Bolton. I intepretted his remarks to be an attempt to say that many countries are in the state they are in because anyone with any talent seeks out a new life in the West.

      Of course I don’t speak for him, so only he can tell us what he meant by the comments.

      1. Drew Murray says:

        I’ve never been to Blackburn or Bolton and didn’t understand the reference so checked it out on Youtube:

      2. Drew Murray says:

        My comment seems to have been truncated and the link removed? Will try again here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyn0ongj0F

  22. Malc says:

    I’m not quite with it on the “if you disagree with what I’m saying on my blog then engage me in discussion in the comments” thing. For sure, I like debate – and we get a lot of it, particularly when we take a view that plenty disagree with (see, for example, on the Pope’s visit).

    But frankly I don’t see the need to engage the discussion when it is so (in the case of racism) blatantly wrong. It’s why I was happy to see Nick Griffin on Question Time – if you give racist-types enough rope, they’ll hang themselves without your help. It’s not that I agree with them, I just don’t think spending time and effort engaging on their terms is ever likely to change their minds.

    Anyway, that’s by the by. I think I can speak for most when I say that left and right are united against this kind of thing.

  23. JohnB says:

    On multiculturalism, here’s a link to an excellent article I read yesterday –

    http://badconscience.com/2010/10/18/the-failure-of-multiculturalism/

    A small snippet –

    ““Multiculturalism” is a phenomenon much debated, much misunderstood, and consequently much abused. Nonetheless, it will be helpful to employ a basic – thus imperfect and loose – definition:

    Multiculturalism refers to the manner of ordering a state whereby no one “culture” – be it ethical, religious, political or ethnic – is given over-riding and official privileged status, and to which citizen conformity is demanded. Competing and differing “cultures” are allowed to exist alongside each other, as well as any dominant “established” or “traditional” “culture”, provided they conform to a set of basic precepts demanded of all citizens (and groups) within the legal-coercive structure of that state.

    That last qualification is important. Multiculturalism does not mean “anything goes”. Whilst religious and ethnic groups may be free in a multicultural state to eat, dress, pray etc in whatever way they choose, certain activities are proscribed regardless of whether they are part of some group’s “culture”.”

    It’s not a short article, but it is very thoughtfully written.

    Regards

  24. Dave Coull says:

    “Dark Lochnagar”, or, at least, Calum Kennedy’s version of it, is one of my favourite songs. As well as buying the record, and going along to hear Calum sing it live a couple of times, I have often attempted to sing it myself, but I just don’t have the vocal range, from low to high, I just can’t hit them notes like Calum could. But although the song is one of my favourites, the guy who uses that as a pseudo-name isn’t. He wrote “Bella or whatever your name is” – that’s pretty funny coming from somebody who himself hides behind a pseudonym!

    “you and your left wing pals attack from the dark” – YOU are the one hiding behind a fake name. I’m Dave Coull.

    “What gives you the right to label me as a racist” – in my case, I have read things you’ve written. I’ve seen things you wrote on “Oil of Scotland”s facebook page, and, although I am not on Twitter, my wife is, and I have seen things you have written there. And, as my wife asked my advice on what she should say in reply to you, I have, indirectly anyway, argued with you before. You’re a racist.

    “Don’t you realise that Pakistan and Zimbabwe are shitholes because they’re full of Pakistanis and Zimbabweans?”

    Pure racism. No doubt the Romans justified their attacks on the Caledonian tribes in the same way.

  25. ChasB says:

    Completely agree we shouldn’t give racists a platform.

    The idea of somewhere the ‘tribe’ originates is ridiculous – in common with most Scots I’m a mongrel with Scots, English, French and plenty more antecedents if you go back far enough. It’s where your heart feels is home that’s important, not the colour of your skin or a concept as medieval as ‘blood ties’.

  26. Dave Coull says:

    “For a thousand years, the ancient nations of Europe had been Christian, homogeneous and with traditional values. French people living in France, Germans living in Germany, Scots living in Scotland”

    What about the large numbers of French people who lived in Scotland? What about the large numbers of religious refugees who had to live in another country because they were the wrong kind of Christian? What about the Scots people living in Germany or Poland? What about the fact that the German “nation” didn’t even EXIST until the late 19th Century?

    You really know very little about the history of Europe, do you, Wilhelm?

  27. Sandy Mathers says:

    …ah well now…Wilhelm and Dark Lochnagar..like Dave Coull, I’m happy to use my real name as well.

    Happy to associate my self with Dave’s comments as well…

    …Wilhelm, you are simply unhinged if you believe that crap…if you’re not unhinged you’re simply a mendacious little creep who is happy to try to make everyone else believe your pish…

    ..Dark Lochnagar…I’ve no idea whether you believe the poison you’re spouting but it doesn’t really matter, you will be a convenient person for the Daily Express and Labour and other Unionists to point to as a “Racist” SNP “supporter”…

    …you no more have the interests of the peoples of this country at heart than my arse is a tattie-chapper…

  28. Vronsky says:

    I feel sorry for subrosa and what has happened to her blog. I got interested when it was new – she was one of the spin-offs from the Herald forums, when the Herald decided that free speech was a luxury that could easily be overdone, and closed down their comments pages. A few blogs arose out of that – talk about laws of unintended consequences!

    I supported subrosa when she was threatened by a newspaper over an allegedly racist comment on her blog, and even supplied a guest blog while she was considering her position. It’s not that I approve of racist comments. I just had a fellow feeling for someone who shoots off their mouth a lot for general entertainment and occasionally gets that cold feeling that they’ve said something inappropriate. It also seemed at the time that nationalist blogs were under attack, and perhaps there should be a circling of wagons.

    So there was a moment when subrosa was vulnerable, and she asked readers to help with guest posts until she sorted things out. Fine, there was Vronsky, with a deliberately apolitical contribution. But the libertarians, fascists, climate change deniers and worse came flooding in, and the lunatics took over the asylum.

    Subrosa, you’ve lost one audience and gained another. I don’t like your new friends.

    PS: I’ve an Irish mother and a Scottish father. I travel on an Irish passport. My surname is French, and I discovered on a recent trip to Brittany that my forename is French too. I consider myself Scottish.

  29. Jings what a stramash. My family have been here since the 1200’s, having skipped the water from Ireland, backwards and forwards since the last big freeze, and to be perfectly frank I’m tired of seeing peely wally faces that burn in the sun or go blue in the cold. I’m tired that ‘my’ culture is supposedly defined by the heedrum and hodrum of Victorian holiday makers. I’m tired of rallying behind a Scottish hero whom we all know was as Scottish as a Crepe Normand.

    What I do love is seeing Scotland in her fullest finery with all colours on display, and if that involves recent arrivals proudly preserving the little bit of heritage they brought with them, then brilliant. I love the fact that my son boxes with a kid called Khan, that he’s just returned from a weekend in Edinburgh, eating at the Mosque kitchen, that his brother shares a studio with kids from Ethiopia, Malaysia and Russia. I love that multiculturalism, as I understand it, allows all of us who choose to live in this dank wee country to celebrate our diversity.

    If any of my supposed cyber friends have a problem with that then they can simply kiss my ample ginger arse.

  30. lenathehyena says:

    Dark Lochnagar
    Scots for centuries have travelled to foreign lands, settled in their own communities at first – this is afor reassurance, sharing of familiar customs, provision of familiar foods etc, before spreading out and about. The same happens in this country.
    For centuries Scots have been economic migrants and Scots remember formed the backbone of the British Empire. Not a lot of real integration went on by the managers who used the economic and military muscle of the UK to impose means of development which were advantageous to us and disadvantageous to the native population. Many of these former colonies of the Empire are still suffering as a direct result of interference from the UK. It is a myth that the Empire was the saviour of developing countries perpetrated by who else but the British state.

    ‘Don’t you realise that Pakistan and Zimbabwe are shitholes because they’re full of Pakistanis and Zimbabweans?’ This kind of statement could as easily slip off the tongues of BNP and far-Right fanatics when describing Scotland and the nationalist threat to the Union. Offensive isn’t it?

    I agree the former government was crap but it is totally far-fetched to equate the Right-wing Labour governments of Blair and Brown who courted the City of London and knelt down before the banks of being of the Left.

  31. Dave Coull says:

    Sandy Mathers wrote that the guy using the pseudo-name “Dark Lochnagar” would be a convenient person for the Daily Express and other Unionists to point to as a “Racist” SNP “supporter”.

    Yes, Sandy, very convenient. But perhaps not entirely honest about his actual party allegiances. Note Keri’s testimony that “DL openly wrote about support for the BNP in Scotland, although, when questioned about it, I noticed the quote I referred to was removed”.

    1. Sandy Mathers says:

      …yes, Dave…but that will be too fine a point for the Unionists to mention…we will all be splashed by the Brush that they use to paint DL…

      ..the fact that DL is more or less openly a nazi will simply be grist to the mill that will see all people who want independence for Scotland to be portrayed as such…

      ..that’s why Mhairi is so right in saying that we should pre-emptively distance ourselves from these elements..

  32. Dave Coull says:

    Aye, Sandy, opponents of independence will try to suggest the likes of DL are typical of supporters of independence, and certainly so far as Facebook is concerned for instance a lot of folk can be quite careless about who they accept as “friends” on FB, so for this reason supporters of independence should clearly and publicly repudiate the racists. As for claims this somehow restricts their freedom of speech, I note that Keri gave an instance of censorship by DL, and JohnB gave an instance of censorship by Subrosa. If we argue publicly with them, then let it be in some context which does not imply any kind of association with them.

  33. Tocasaid says:

    The crap on Subrosa’s blog is both disappointing and disgraceful. She kicks off by agreeing with Merkel’s statement (“It has to be said”) and then denies agreeing with it. Is she bi-polar or senile? Or a just another bigoted auld Daily Mailer.

    Fact is, we have always been ‘multi cultural’. One need only look to the auld Gaelic ‘tribes’ of Alba. The clans of Srath Spè had a different culture from their fellow Gaels in Ceapach, Loch Abar. Even on the Taobh Siar of Lewis, the Morrisons slaughtered the MacPhees and vice-versa. There will always be differences between people but haven’t we progressed beyond tribal warfare?

    The fact that our lifestyle in Scotland is significantly better than it was during our parents/ grandparents time (compare child mortality for one) and that everyday life is imbued with influences from different cultures (who doesn’t eat pizza, curry, burger, tapas etc) is evidence that multiculturism doesn’t only ‘work’ but that it enhances our lives.

    I do get tired arguing this. Maybe it would be simpler to go back to Anti Fascist Action’s philosophy of just kicking these arseholes off the streets?

  34. A2Mac says:

    Hi BC,

    On the subject of Racism I have strong views. I belief every single person in the world regardless of their genetic origin are equal. I have black, brown, yellow and white friends.

    I do not belief that every political ideology is equal and I have a particular interest in history and religion. I am a devout athiest though and my interest in religion is a by product of my search to understand morality and social norms.

    I hold some views that traditionally belong to the right and many that traditionally belong to the left. I am totally against anyform of sexism and any culture that promotes seperate rights for people based on their ethnicity or sex disgust me.

    It is easy to label someone for being a fascist without stratching beneath the surface and I refuse to hide my opinions while also welcoming those opinions I disagre with in the hope of better understanding where a person is coming from.

    I strongly dislike Islamic law, teachings and have read extensively on the subject for many years. It is not a religion as we in the west understand it. It is more a kin to totalitarianism and it is the biggest threat to the west that has ever existed and thanks to the billions in oil money the Saudis are able to promote this globally. Islam is at war with the West we are just to politically correct to accept this.

    On the subject of immigration my objections are mainly economic. If you imagine the flow of income that represents the movement of money in the UK economy every single pound that leaves the UK is to our detriment. We need to tackle our unemployment issues and social deprevation by changing the culture of the long term unemployed via programmes that put the spark back in the fire. I do not belief we should just import labour from Poland or Asia as this temporary solution creates more unemployment for Scottish peoples and destroys the fabric of our communities.

    Politically I support a fiscally independent Scotland as important to ensure the correct economic decisions are made in the best interests of all the people of Scotland.

    Support smaller state, more liberty, less public services, more banking regulation, green energy and rule of law that is fair to all.

    Against military intervention in another country, against nuclear weapons and against global grandstanding as the British so often do. I support our soldiers as they never choose where they go only that they sign up to offer their protection so we can stay home safe. Recently lost a friend in Afghanistan and still have several friends and some family members on active duty.

    Support Israel, the Jews and their right to remain in the land they have inhabited sign history began. Support a Palestinian state ideally in Jordon but anywhere. Historically possession of that region has changed hands by force many times. It was Jewish for thousands of years until the Arabs stole it by conquest. It is again Jewish because it was taken by force. Much of what we now call the middle east was jewish by Islamic intollerance killed many of them. Just like Iraq was Christian until the Islamic conquest.

    Ethically object to cultures and religiously backed ideas that support hatred, intollerance, antisemitism, sexism, social apartheid and therefore I object to Islamic cultural influence and increase. Observant Muslims are not a race they are a religious motivated political group that has no race but all share one of the main 4 religious schools of law Specifically Object to:
    Genital mutilation of young girls
    Force marriage of child brides
    Forbidding education to girls
    Justification of Marital rape
    Domestic Violence
    Forbiding girls from leaving the house unaccumpanied by male relatives
    Forbiding of teenage girls and boys mixing freely
    Religiously justified hatred of Jews
    Social Apartheid / Jiyza Taxation of Jews/Christians

    Do I think we need more people like this in our counties? NO.

    Does that make me a Fascist in your mind. I do not know. I am a father first and a political observer second. I will never let idealism get in the way of realism.

    I like your site.

  35. A2Mac says:

    Sorry for poor spelling and not checking but typed all this from my phone while watching a film. Took ages.

  36. lenathehyena says:

    Blimey! I’ll be back once I’ve dragged myself up off the floor.

  37. lenathehyena says:

    A2Mac
    How often do you hear that familiar refrain, ‘I’m not racist but…’ . Indeed A2.

    I welcome A2Mac’s assertion that he(?)’is totally against…any culture that promotes separate rights for people based on their ethnicity…’ and will come back to this.

    No, Islamic law is not a religion A2 – it is a by-product of religious beliefs …and just what do you mean by ‘ it is not a religion as we in the west understand it’ ?

    It’s a weird kind of argument to suggest that it is immigrant workers who are responsible for the flow of money out of the UK. Multinationals based overseas, City of London investors, overseas accounts, systematic tax evasion to the tune of billions annually are major causes of revenue loss not the immigrant grocer working all hours to feed his family in Scotland and possibly abroad.

    Social deprivation is not caused by immigrants to this country. If you believe immigrants can just walk in, pick up hefty benefits and sit on their backsides as happy as Larry, you will believe anything.

    Long term unemployment is not caused by immigrants. There are many reasons for it – educational, social, cultural, political. Trying to pin the blame on immigrants is wrong. There are issues about long-term unemployment in Scotland which should be tackled but it is pandering to governments to excuse their responsibility for resolving this problem by making scapegoats of immigrant workers.

    Where would the people you feel so sorry for, the long-term unemployed, be in a Scotland with a shrunken public service sector? Scotland does not need fewer public services only trimming back of the bureaucracy which has grown throughout the public sector. We need more frontline services – what we don’t need are tiers of office-bound bureaucrats who never see the public they are supposed to be serving. Cutting public service jobs on the frontline will do nothing to help remedy the problems of the long-term unemployed.

    I can’t quite square this notion that you are against military intervention in another country yet defend soldiers who fight in these countries. Do the people who volunteer to go into the services have no responsibility for their actions? They are an arm of government. They enable the realisation of the ideology.

    But then we come to your extraordinary anti-Islamic rant and your earlier point about being against cultures which promote separate rights based on ethnicity. Fine but then you spoil it by referring to Israel. Israel?

    “The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs’ inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

    The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).

    … The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)
    In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.

    …The mythic “land without people for a people without land” was already home to 700,000 Palestinians in 1919. This is the root of the problem.”

    Islamic propaganda? No, the above comments come from the website of Jews for Justice in the Middle East.

    I’m afraid Israel as a state is guilty of racism, intolerance, social apartheid so how does that differ from your view of Islam?

    Scare mongering about hordes of fanatical Muslims arriving on the shores of Scotland is just silly. How many Muslim people do you know fit the lurid descriptions of extremism on your little list?

    Finally, I would check out what idealism and realism mean.

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