The Game Changer Within

failed_elite

Everyone waiting for a game-changer, or Darling getting a pasting would be disappointed. That wasn’t to be. Neither is the discovery of a major new oil find off Shetland. Sorry. There is no D notice.

Don’t believe the hype. Last night may not have been a killer blow for Salmond but the important bit, how did it effect Undecided voters, has been overlooked. The ICM poll that says Darling won 56% to 44%, but a closer look is telling:

Don’t knows thought Salmond won, 45% to 55%
No’s thought Darling won, 90% to 10%
Yes’s thought Salmond won, 80% to 20%

So Darling edged it overall because No voters were more convinced their own man won than Yes voters were, but Don’t Knows narrowly preferred Salmond.

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Who cares? It isn’t significant.

Repeat to yourself the simple truth: It’s not about Alex Salmond. It’s not about Alistair Darling.

There will be no game-changer. Realisation should be dawning: politicians are disappointing; professional campaigns are disappointing; we are the change.

The game changer is within. No-one will hand you down tablets of truth. No higher authority will tell you facts that will allow you to decide.

Think for yourself. Act for yourself.

Instead of succumbing to the desultory spin-room filled with an exhausted looking Scots commentariat sipping from plastic cups, it’s time to wake up to some harsh realities.

Today , in the second decade of the 21 Century, the present British Prime Minister, Foreign Secretary, Chancellor, Shadow Chancellor and Shadow Home Secretary all went to Oxford University together. Many of the Cabinet actually went to the same school together. David Cameron, Oliver Letwin, minister for government policy; Jo Johnson, head of his policy unit; Ed Llewellyn, chief of staff; and Rupert Harrison, George Osborne’s chief economic adviser all went to Eton.

We are ruled by a failed elite we didn’t elect from an absurdly narrow and privileged sect of English society. If you find that a bizarre symbol of enshrined institutional failure, Vote Yes.

Don’t wait for leadership, don’t believe the media framing, don’t rely on one big moment. On the streets, campaigning, at mass canvas, at Women for Indy stalls and events, at YesShops and hubs, at Super Saturday: you are the game changer.

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  1. Cat Anderson says:

    Thank you for this. I’ve been so depressed this past week with the referendum. I was a no voter way back and quite adamant, but I could never explain why to anyone. Then someone asked me, ‘do you like Westminster’s politics?’ to which I replied, no I loathed them with a passion. So why then was I voting no? Did I not realise that my no vote was a vote of confidence in Westminster? I was horrified. Yes it was. But I had no information on what a yes vote would mean. So then I started researching, and frankly I wish the rest of the no voting population would get off their backsides and do the same, because all the facts are out there for us to find ourselves.
    Politicians made me fear a yes vote. My own hard work and the dedication of people like the ones here, made me want a yes vote more than anything I have cared about in my life. But I am scared. People are sheep, they believe the media and the hype. On my own twitter stream last night, two converted to no voting, several no voters who I thought were intelligent enough to do more homework (but their husbands work in the financial sector ’nuff said) were sticking it in to Salmond, whining about their pensions and money, and people kept going on about the currency issue which isn’t actually an issue if they would just do their research. People still believe what they read in newspapers and see on television and it terrifies me.
    Your post has reminded me to get back out there and keep at it. I’m not sure if it is a trend or not but I’e found that no voters seem to fall into two camps – those who haven’t got involved in learning more, and are just taking politicians word for it, and those who earn salaries from financial sectors…they all seem to worry about the money issues. Yes voters appear to be people from all walks of life but worried more about the people aspect of staying together and how independence will create a fairer society.
    Either way, thanks for the motivational speech,I’m back on the Yes horse and pounding the streets!

    1. MBC says:

      Thanks for this. It is hard sometimes not to feel furious at No voters, but not everyone lives and breathes politics, not everyone is as sceptical of mainstream politicians or the MSM, not everyone is willing to change the prejudices of a lifetime or examine how they were acquired.

      What we are witnessing is the chronic misgovernment of Scotland over many generations, and the civic response of Scots living here to make Scotland work despite the disadvantages we suffer, like not having control of all our taxes or policy decisions.

      So what you get is two forces pulling in opposite directions, the result equalising as mediocrity (as opposed to an economic wilderness, which is what we would have, if we didn’t resist misgovernment).

      And many No voters are content with that, and complacent, not grasping the sheer effort it has taken to get this far, or the obstacles that were against us. And that makes me mad, as I see them as kind of parasitic, not necessarily in themselves as people, but in their attitudes because they won’t lift their ignorance. They are confident of the ‘best of both worlds; better together’ crap, because they have found a comfortabld niche in it. They Scottish Parliament has made a difference, and they think it will continue to develop and to deliver. They just don’t get what a thread it all hangs by, or the extent to which our expectations are carefully managed so we don’t ‘get above ourselves’.

      We have to keep making the arguments that the current system fails a great many Scots unecessarily, and that those it satisfies, it contents with mediocrity.

      1. JGedd says:

        Well put. I agree with this analysis. The No vote is not really about any sentimental attachment to the UK but is about holding onto the system which has provided them with their “comfortable niche”. As you say it isn’t really about spectacular achievement in many cases but in settling for what they have – as long as they are not one of the have-nots.

        We are asking people who often have no real empathy for the community at large but only for their own narrow echelon, to consider a better, more equal society. It’s hardly surprising that they don’t respond very well to such a vision. Some people prefer inequality as long as they feel themselves to be at least a rung or two above others. There is for them no ambition for their society as a whole, all that’s required is that their relative position within should be kept safe.

        When encountering these people while out canvassing, I feel my heart sink. It is, in the end, such a self-defeating and grudging outlook you meet. Trying to convince some people that as well as making things better for other people at the bottom they will improve and enhance their own society and enhance opportunities for themselves and future generations is met with dour suspicion. I get the impression that they feel their own fragile hold on their present position is threatened by advancing that of others. That is why you might encounter people you feel would actually benefit from a Scottish economy being run without the restraints of London mismanagement actually standing firmly with the real winners of the UK system, the wealthy elite.

        It is an old story. There have always been the non-commissioned officers standing between the privileged officer class and the rank and file, identifying with those further up the chain of command and fiercely protecting that very structure. The only ambition is to keep your place. The thing is the establishment know these people very well and we have a society which encourages fear and loathing. Hence the invention of that odious phrase “the underclass”. It is also the reason why the No campaign does not offer a positive case for the UK since the very structure of the UK relies on social division and lack of empathy.

      2. MBC says:

        Thanks JGedd, I agree with your analysis too.

        It’s what used to be called the ‘I’m alright, Jack’ attitude. And it’s the curse of modern democracy.

        One thing I do find works with these folks is ‘so you trust the British establishment and Westminster Government then?’ and it’s, ‘Well no, I wouln’t actually say that’. Keep raising the critiques, and how this misgovernment will affect even them in their comfie zone.

        We all pass through stages in life. We may be in a comfie zone now, but what about in ten years time?

    2. yerkitbreeks says:

      Not just the financial sector. Speaking to a farmer friend yesterday who said ” what debate ” ? Is this just too busy to notice ( sheep clipping ) or the Borders ” Aye been “.

      I suspect the latter. Over the years farmers have invariably voted Tory although history proves that Labour governments have been more generous to them.

      This is (must) to be won or lost in the estates of the Central Belt where they see at first hand the tragic effects of Westminster ( of whatever colour ) rule.

      My Aberdeen friends are NO – what’s to change ? Through the oil we have the detached house, no mortgage, cars and the holidays. I’m all right jack and fuck the scroungers I read about in the press.

  2. Abulhaq says:

    Bitter irony that the class that herded the Scots into the hecatomb of WW1 is the same that dictates our future one hundred years later. This campaign has radicalised our politics. Even a vote for the British status quo cannot counter that.

    1. MBC says:

      Yes, this is often omitted. The old imperial class, resurgent, from the playing fields of Eton, still screwing up the country and running it in their own imperial interests. Osborne’s father has interests in Cuadrilla, the fracking company that the government awards licences for.

      We need to have our own version of Project Fear. What you’ve said is part of it.

      1. yerkitbreeks says:

        The old imperial class, yes – just look at Boris johnston’s entry in Wiki. He’s a scion of the lot that a 100 years ago said ” send another bunch of Jocks over the top “.

  3. Barontorc says:

    Is anyone aware of being induced into playing a game with someone else who alone can make the rules?

    Here we have the FM trying to get a backbench UK MP to confess to deliberate lying, juvenile namecalling and for being responsible for the most monumental fiscal mismanagement the UK has ever suffered from and all he gets back in response is – ‘that’s just rubbish’,- end of.

    Next we have the FM telling the same numpty backbench UK MP what the preferred currency option is for an ongoing independent Scotland, to be told – ‘you can’t have that, so what’s your next move as a Plan B?’ – end of again.

    All of this is so damaging to the nation’s sanity and is such an exceptional pain in the rear end that even the most obviously uninformed comments are getting plastered over the media and register about 1 in 10 scale of importance and that’s for comments which have even a smidgin of reality, never mind the bulk of dross that is just puerile nonsense.

    Maybe it’s time to tell our erstwhile play-friends to take their ball and bat and their crackpot rules and stick them where the sun don’t shine.

  4. Auld Rock says:

    Mike,
    There might not be a ‘D’ Notice as such but it is a well known fact that the MOD has consistently blocked a ‘shovel ready, as they say’ oil field off Campbeltown just so that they can play with their ‘pig boats’.

    Auld Rock

    1. bellacaledonia says:

      Agreed.

    2. yerkitbreeks says:

      But Mike is right, the big oil is off Shetland contiguous with Clair ( a good friend is a bigwig in BP ).

  5. macart763 says:

    Heh, the game changer has already occurred and its on the streets right now. A motivated and engaged electorate in the form of the YES campaign. The politicians can have their TV cameras and the media their headlines. At the end of the day its for the people to debate and decide the nature of their governance and we’ll do that in homes, workplaces, halls, streets, fairgrounds, online, on the phone, pretty much anywhere in fact.

    People say they don’t have enough information, enough detail, enough clarity about the future. This is a nonsense, an excuse. There has been more information disseminated by both sides in this campaign than any debate on independence in living history. What people really want is to know who to believe and to have the answer handed to them on a plate with a guilt edged guarantee. Assurances on a future yet to be.

    This is not going to happen.

    Frankly I have no idea what the future holds in or out of the union, anyone who claims they do is frankly a liar. There can only ever be a best guess or an informed theory. The last again will be coloured by the quality of the information used to inform said theory. But I do have a lifetime’s experience of being a UK subject and fourteen years experience of watching the effects of a devolved parliament and growth of Scottish politics to call upon. I have my hopes and aspirations for the future and I can form an opinion based upon my own experience and limited knowledge, but I can no more predict the course of a nation’s future than I can pick with any certainty the winning numbers for this weeks lotto. What I do know for an absolute certainty is that if enough people want something badly enough, they can move mountains to make it happen.

    So if the people want a socially just, economically successful and independent Scotland, then they can have it by making it happen themselves.

    People are going to have to take responsibility and make a choice on who to believe and who to trust. If people lack expertise in economics, resource management, taxation or world affairs they must look to their own experience and they must compare the actions of one parliament and its representatives over the actions of the other and its representatives. They must look to the system of government presented by one and compare it with the system of government on offer with independence. Look to track records and how that has affected your life, shaped your personal experience. Look to which avenue offers the most hope, the better scope for meaningful change.

    Do you believe there is a better way, a fairer way of governing? Do you want a fairer, more responsible form of governance? Do you believe the current entrenched system will deliver this? Or do you believe that with independence you will be able to achieve the form of governance you wish?

    I believe the current system to be fatally flawed, elitist, power centric and corrupt. The evidence for this could fill the pages of a bible. Do I think we can do better? Yes, if we work for it. Do I think independence is a risk? I think crossing the road is a risk? But if you look both ways and pick your moment, you can make it to the other side in one piece.

    Scotland has the wealth and the brains to make this work it always had. What we lacked was the opportunity and the confidence. Well, now we’ve got the opportunity.

    1. JimnArlene says:

      Top notch comment.

    2. YESGUY says:

      On the ball as usual Macart as are all the other comments.

      You say it all and more . More power to your pens.

      1. macart763 says:

        Saw you having a good old vent yourself elsewhere. Well said by the way. 🙂

  6. Clydebuilt says:

    Mike

    Things are even better than you painted above, From the Guardian poll, of those who remained undecided after listenning to the debate Salmond won by a thumping 74 to 26
    The data is presented at
    http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/icmtable3.jpg

  7. Gordon Benton says:

    Surely it is all about TRUST. Who do we who live in Scotland trust? Look around us – does anyone trust our present Westminster/ Whitehall management? Do we, can we trust all these ‘forecasts’ of future doom or prosperity’

    We have trusted the Scottish Government but this referendum business has largely been taken over by the British Media which makes little effort at fairness and its bias towards the Londonshire establishment is blatant. The dirty tricks brigade has very successfully in just two years strategically sullied the reputation of our First Minister, who with his Holyrood Government, was then and still is running an excellent and honest-to-goodness administration. but then, can anyone be surprised that these character-assassination strategies are being brought into play?

    But, as has been said above, this referendum, for the first time in the history of the Nation, has little to do with politicians and even less to do with the established UK political party circus. Each one of us will be voting for just one thing – independence for the Nation – not for Alex Salmond or Joann Lamont, or any Prime Minister in London – just for a fair, clean and modern society serving all the people. We desire to be a Nation that can sit beside all the other Nations in the World, in Europe and in the UN to add our pennyworth to the debates and the decisions that affect us all.

    Alex and the SNP won the last election by the honest vote of the people, and everyone knew that independence was on the SNP Election Manifesto. Through the voters’ choice, the time for a vote on a referendum on Independence had come, albeit taking many folk by surprise, but there it is, and on September 19th morning we will all wake up to a new reality. And it will be our decision; no one else’s. That is the responsibility; that is the excitement; that is the opportunity. Everyone in Scotland is thinking now!

  8. Chalks says:

    Macart, I am stealing your comment. lol…inspirational.

    1. macart763 says:

      Here tae help. Fill yer boots I meant every word. 🙂

  9. Orzel says:

    I agree about the narrow circle from which all our politicians come but in the interests of accuracy there is only one Old Etonian in the cabinet, that is David Cameron. Oliver Letwin is entitled to go to meetings but is not in it. Old Etonians do make up Cameron’s lose political circle but they are not in the cabinet

  10. Phil Robertson says:

    You’ve done your own share of “overlooking the figures”.

    The same poll shows that, pre- and post-debate, TWICE as many DKs moved to the No camp as did to the Yes camp.

    1. tartanfever says:

      Likewise Phil, if you take this poll into context of the last ICM poll last month, it shows a significant swing to Yes.

      Excluding Don’t Knows, Yes goes from 43 to 47, No down from 57 to 53.

      In the overall context of ICM polls, that’s a pretty significant figure you’re ignoring.

  11. manandboy says:

    (http://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/worlds-richest-and-poorest-countries)

    Norway is the 4th richest country in the world.

    After Independence, Scotland will shoot up the richest country league table and go above Norway.

    While rUK will fall down to about 42 or 43 and join Greece and Portugal.

    Yet Alistair Darling is frantically telling us that Scotland at no.3 is better together with no.43, rUK.

    Conclusion.

    Alistair Darling is a liar and a con man.

    So are his political masters in the Tory party.

    My dog is only 4 and he knows this.

  12. Phil Robertson says:

    “Alistair Darling is a liar and a con man.”

    Before chastising others, you should check your own statements. The UK sits 23rd in your table, somewhere between Germany and France which seems reasonable.

    If money’s so important why don’t you pitch your ambitions higher. Let’s be like Qatar that sits at no 1. Money isn’t everything.

    1. gonzalo1 says:

      But it is important. I don’t subscribe to what some people say is social justice – there is nothing just about individuals who haven’t done a days work in their lives getting the same allowances as someone who has worked extremely hard and paid ten of thousands in tax. Why should people who do not, and indeed do not want to, contribute to society get £140 pension when others, workers, get the same?
      This is not fair.
      What is fair is that those who have a disability get treated well, and that those who try and find work, the young for example, get opportunities to play their part in society and are rewarded for their efforts.
      A Yes vote will give them greater opportunities to get on in life by earning money, obtaining a better education and not having, like my son and many others, to emigrate and find a better life.

  13. Its not which politician that won but its more important that we,the citizens of Scotland win not who shouted the loudest! Reminded me of an old teacher who said “empty vessels make most noise” and “the one that shouts the loudest has least to say” Darling shouted the loudest and finger waved like he was lecturing us all.

  14. Paddy S Hogg says:

    Manandboy – I want a chat with your 4 year old dog. I trust he has an AYE coat on? Mr Alistair Darling took the economy over a cliff in a suicidal crash, so he has little credibility to rant about the economy, although like all Labour MP’s he paints himself as a hero. The British economy is so fixated on profits being amassed and gambled on the stock exchange, that the only long term structural funding in the UK economy is money from China! A YES vote will take the £1,500 billion oil and gas asset off the UK plc balance sheet (ie off the asset sheet in the Bank of England) IF WE DO NOT HAVE A CURRENCY UNION, so rUK will come round rapid to prop up the pound by demanding a currency union with an Independent SCotland to help prop up the value of the pound. One thing I am not looking forward to before Independence is the London property market overheating again (as it is) which will force ME TO PAY more when interest rates are hiked up to slow down the property (greed based) boom, and I will once again pay more in the mortgage purely because the housing market is overheating in the South. I assume also that the Sea border change made by darling and Co in 1999 to steal 10% of the oil revenue and put it into the England tax take (thus reducing our take income figures) is not an area that troubles the YES camp? Ive never had any respect for a thief or a con man and and any schoolkid (aged 8 or older) knows that SCotland’s sea border should not be pushed up so far north that it bends out straight from Carnoustie!!!!!! It is an outrage. Darling and co are fighting for their jobs first and foremost. Time for Ivan MacKee to be back on TV explaining the economics for all to understand. He does this better than anyone in the YES camp.

  15. gonzalo1 says:

    J Gedd – thank you for your contribution. I couldn’t have put it better and it is something that very few in the media want to talk about.
    The people you talk about, as you say, are in a comfortable niche; I call them the ‘I’m alright Jacks’. They own their own council house, they had an early retirement from (probably, on most occasions) the public sector and have a decent pension; they play a round of golf in the morning followed by a few halfs then a trip down the garden centre; a trip to the pub on a Friday night for a game of pool is the norm and the football or rugby on a Saturday afternoon fills in the weekend. Life could be better of course, they could win the lottery, but it could be worse, and for the meantime they have enough to go to Tenerife in the winter and any talk about food banks and bedroom tax and 1 in 4 children in poverty is largely irrelevant – they really couldn’t care less. They constitute a few hundred thousand votes and that is what we are up against.

    1. Dean Richardson says:

      Sadly, the state continues to hire such white collar ‘workers’, even though the taxpayer cannot afford it, and the ‘work’ they do could probably be done far more efficiently by a lot fewer people. The savings made in salaries and pensions could be used at the sharp end of the social services, and the public would benefit from a leaner, more efficient service. But, of course, the wealthy, powerful ruling classes need these ‘NCOs’, to borrow from JGedd’s earlier post, to keep the whole rotten system going. In return for doing the state’s bidding, the state rewards them with generous (excessively so, as there’s no competition from the rival state sector down the road) salaries and pensions. From the state’s point of view, it’s so damned simple, it’s like taking candy from a bairn. If you have a few hundred thousand of these people in Scotland alone, it just shows how there are way more people on the UK state payroll than the taxpayer can really afford.

  16. Sure Scot says:

    What a very misleading and inaccurate article on here from the author and from yes Scotland!
    I was wondering how you guys would spin this.
    The participants in this sample survey were asked before the debate started and the split was 53% No and 47% yes. The same people were asked after the debate and the split was still 53% No and 47% Yes.
    There was no change.
    Blair Jenkins is either trying to mislead people or he doesn’t understand opinion polls.
    This cannot be compared to any previous opinion poll as the sample is too low and way below the 1,000 standard sample.
    There is no mention of any Don’t Know’s being included.
    For those who want an unbiased view and the real facts behind this survey I have attached the link to the ICM survey results.

    http://www.icmresearch.com/media-centre/polls/alex-salmond-vs-alastair-darling-independence-referendum-debate

  17. JBS says:

    As for the currency, that is something that will have to be negotiated post-referendum if Scotland votes Yes. That did not stop George Osborne turning up in Edinburgh pre-referendum to rule out the possibility of a currency union, and it didn’t take long for Labour and the LibDems to issue their own statements backing him up. What they were saying to the Scottish people is this: By all means vote for independence, but if you do then we will do our level best to wreck your economy.

    What an insult to the people of Scotland. What utter contempt. I do not see why Scotland should consent to continue to be governed by these sneering, cynical Westminster opportunists. Statesmen they are not.

    Vote for Scottish independence on September 18 and kick the whole rotten crew of them out.

    1. Sure Scot says:

      They are not trying to wreck our economy (as you put it) if we go independent.
      The Uk government are simply saying they will have to do what is best for rUk citizens snd their economy. Independence and self governance comes with huge self responsibility – we should not have to rely on begging another country (especially the one you have just left) to agree to enter a currency union.
      The pound sterling belongs to UK or rUk.
      This article and the graphic lifted from the yes Scotland website above is an insult to the people of Scotland. Yes Scotland are at it here! Try reading the link I attached from the ICM website there is not a 4% increase here for yes – you (and all the yes supporters) are being lied to. You need to wake up and realise you are being used to realise some select few peoples dream of independence.

      1. JBS says:

        Thank you for informing me that I am being ‘used to realise some select few peoples dream of independence’. I do not recollect telling you that you are unable to understand the issues involved and make up your own mind about them.

        You say: ‘The pound sterling belongs to UK or rUk’. In response I shall quote the words of Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp, Chief Executive of Business for Scotland:

        ‘Sterling is a fully convertible currency, this means that if any country in the world wants to use sterling it can. Examples of a fully convertible currency being used by other nations include Panama and El Salvador using the US dollar. Using the pound for a period, is a well proven route for countries leaving British rule (New Zealand/Ireland/Australia etc). However Scotland’s right to use sterling is stronger than other countries due to the fact that Scotland owns a population percentage share of the Bank of England (BOE), and so we will just be using a currency and services of a bank that we part-own with the other UK countries. So all that is being proposed is that Scotland will maintain the currency union that we joined hundreds of years ago and still works whilst leaving the political one that doesn’t.’

        Actually, the whole article is extremely interesting. It can be found here:

        http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/euro-pound-or-scottish-pound/

        Your phrase ‘begging another country’ is very revealing.

      2. yerkitbreeks says:

        We need to be careful not to conflate the Bank Of England with pound currency. Until 1948 the BoE was just like Barclays, then it was nationalised. What a pity it wasn’t called the Bank of the United Kingdom since then it would be easier, especially for those in England to understand it is a shared asset belonging in different proportions to the four nations making up the UK state. With Independence this asset will have to be divvied up, gold bars, gilts and all – negotiations forthcoming.

        The currency on the other hand is an ongoing political construct and is underwritten by participants, again in differing proportions – more difficult negotiations forthcoming.

        The Scottish Government’s position though is sensible since the economies are so aligned ( unlike some Euro participants ) and therefore a shared pound is a win – win situation.

      3. Sure Scot says:

        We would be begging another country for a currency union.
        Any union of any sort by definition is participation or agreement by more than one party. Therefore no currency union.
        The Uk government is saying no to a currency union because it is not in the best interests of the rUk economy.
        Yes we could use the pound, we could use any currency we wish but that is not the point. We would have no central bank, no control over interest rates, no lender of last resort facility and be undeniably tied to the rUk economy. We are walking away from the BoE.
        You cannot force anyone into any union – if they don’t want to then they don’t have to. This is not some sort of expected favour that rUk will buckle to. If they don’t think it is suitable for rUk then it will not happen. They have already decided this.

      4. Sure Scot says:

        Yerkitbreeks – I am under no illusion that the BoE belongs to the UK.
        We are currently in about £1.4 Trillion in the red – I doubt there are any gold bars left as you suggested. The BoE is an unmeasurable asset it is a guarantor of the country’s finances, it is used to control the economy, currency and interest rates. It is not something that can be divided up like a cd collection. The debt on the other hand will be. We will have to inherit our share (if we want to stand any chance of a good credit rating)- estimated somewhere between £100 -£143 billion. The debt will heavily outweigh any seperating of assets.

      5. JBS says:

        So Scotland wouldn’t be negotiating, it would be begging? A negotiation is indeed ‘participation or agreement by more than one party’ – but you’re saying that this is not what would be happening?

        Did you read Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp’s article? Here are another couple of quotes:

        ‘…the UK Government and the Bank of England, in the event of independence, would naturally want what is best for the UK sterling zone and its citizens and would want (actually need) the backing for sterling that Scottish oil and other exports would provide.’

        ‘…the Bank of England (which under international law an independent Scotland owns roughly 9% of)…’

        Who says that we are ‘walking away from the BoE’, and why would we if we already own part of it?

        You also say: ‘They have already decided this’. But have they, or was it just an insulting, because empty, threat?

      6. Sure Scot says:

        So you don’t think No means No then.
        Do you really think that all of the senior politicians such as Osborne and Balls would lay their career on the line and then simply change their mind in the event of a yes?
        Anyway, the yes sides best bargaining chip has just been voted away. The SNP have voted to remove nuclear weapons from an Iscotland. So there isn’t going to be much to negotiate with.
        Business for Scotland is not a reliable source. It is a partisan pro yes website with members of the small business community that happen to want independence. There is no large businesses or top businessmen listed on it – not even Brian Souter.
        This is just one guys opinion.
        Any stake we own in BoE will go towards slightly reducing our share of the debt.
        There can only be one central bank for sterling – if we ended up getting a 10% split off the BoE and had our own version of BoE – we would effectively have a “Scottish Pound” not a currency union with Uk sterling. It would not be worth the same as sterling.

      7. muttley79 says:

        Sure Scot: Philip Hammond told the Guardian that a currency union would happen in the event of a Yes vote. Therefore, your statement about all politicians at Westminster saying it would not happen is patently false and misleading.

      8. Come independence Scotland will be a free democratic country welcomed into the world of nations.

        We will not be begging to the EU.
        We will not be begging to the USA.
        And we will certainly not be begging to the rUK.

        We will never beg to anyone – never!

  18. Lawrence says:

    I’m interested in your insight in to the Craig Field, how have you reached this conclusion? What evidence do you have ? There seems to be a load of information saying otherwise, could you expand

  19. Lawrence says:

    I’m interested in your insight into the Craig Field, do you have any evidence? There seems to be a load of information out there are you saying all the is made up ?

  20. MoJo says:

    Sure Scot – no one has to beg – we will negotiate with our neighbour country England , who has a great deal to lose……..once we have voted Yes…..

    1. Sure Scot says:

      We won’t be negotiating with “England” we will be negotiating with the UK.
      A common fallacy here is that this is Scotland versus England. I’ve tried explaining this to some yesers but it normally doesn’t sink in.
      Not to worry though there will still be a strong Uk to bail out a future Iscotland according to MBC etc. It is an Iscotland that has most to lose (along with the population) believe me.

      1. tartanfever says:

        Some of SureScots claims:

        Firstly, a central bank – we won’t have one. Ohhh Scary !

        A central bank is a bunch of guys sitting round a table talking about the economy and interest rates. Thats it. It is not Fort Knox, there is no big safe with piles of cash as far as the eye can see. There are no gold bars, vast caskets of treasure or anything else. Don’t be fooled by the Bank of England building in London, it’s imposing granted, but that means hee-haw in reality. Money is created on a lap top and distributed, that’s what quantitive easing is. They issue bonds, a piece of paper with writing on it. Most of the time they spend having lunch with the CEO’s of the financial institutions they left discussing how to fiddle markets to make themselves richer.

        Hire a suite of small offices in Edinburgh, appoint your economists and call yourselves the Central Bank of Scotland. That is all that is required. Get some computer equipment, a printer for issuing bonds (maybe go for one of those ‘all-in-one’ efforts that can double as a photocopier to save you some money). Hey presto, central bank.

        But according to SureScot, this is what an independent Scotland will lose out on, the majesty of the BoE. You know, the guys that the media say are ‘too clever to lose’ but in reality are the muppets that helped destroy the economy.

        No lender of last resort. Bollocks, we can easily use the IMF who have been funding countries for decades, including funnily enough, the UK. Sure, the IMF can impose some economic clauses on the issuing of a loan, but with Scotland’s oil wealth and favourable economy, they won’t be as harsh as you may think. They certainly would be fairer than a vengeful Westminster trying to influence the BoE.

        SureScot tries to tell us that we will have a poor credit rating if we don’t take the debt. I doubt it. Not having any debt obviously reduces the need for a loan in the first place and secondly, it reduces the risk factor for lenders. Unionists try to tell us that Scotland will be a pariah state because we ‘reneged on our obligation’. Really ? I think most international organisations will see a fair offer on the table from Scotland offering a divide of debt and assets and look on Westminster as a huffy bully trying to take everything. Thats certainly more plausible than the Unionists ‘pariah state’ theory.

        On the subject of the national debt. Mmm – nah, no thanks, we don’t want any part of that. We are under no obligation to take any of the debt – period. If Westminster decide to play tough on currency union etc then let them keep the debt. Simple as that. There is a very strong case already made by the SNP that Scotland will take a fair share of the debt along with a fair share of the assets. If Westminster don’t want to do so, thats their choice. Make your bed, lie in it. Remember, they’ve already accepted responsibility for all of it.

        Lastly, to sum up the scaremongering, lets look at a passage that makes no sense.

        On talking about currency union he says:

        ‘Yes we could use the pound, we could use any currency we wish but that is not the point. We would have no central bank, no control over interest rates, no lender of last resort facility and be undeniably tied to the rUk economy. We are walking away from the BoE.’

        Ehh ? All those things can’t be true at the same time.

        If we have a currency union, then we have a central bank, no (or a little) control over interest rates and a lender of last resort.

        If we don’t have a currency union, then we don’t have a lender of last resort (we do really, the IMF but lets run with Sure Scot here), we don’t have a central bank ( until we set one up, see above) but we have complete control over interest rates.

        There is no scenario where you don’t have control over some of of the above, unless of course, you are SureScot.

        But in a spirit of appreciation for the posts, I think we should award the 2014 ‘no shit Sherlock’ trophy for letting us know that Business for Scotland is pro-indy.

        Richly deserved SureScot, well done.

      2. Nice one Tartan fever – bang on.

        Sure Scot – do not try to patronise us.

  21. MBC says:

    Troll alert.

    Don’t waste your time folks.

    1. Sure Scot says:

      Hmmm? I wonder who you are reffering to?
      Btw- A troll is not someone who happens to disagree with your opinion.
      If you are interested in the real figures behind this article then read the link from ICM below. Yes voters are being deliberately mislead here from their own side.

      http://www.icmresearch.com/media-centre/polls/alex-salmond-vs-alastair-darling-independence-referendum-debate

      1. Scottie says:

        Sure scot,
        Undoubtedly there will be claims of victory from both sides although for the record I think AS didn’t fire nearly enough of the relevant questions at mr darling and hence he got an easy ride. Also AS and YES have given themselves limited room for manoeuvre over currency with their insistence about a currency union. Believe me I have found this frustrating. But as politicians this is their plan to try to appeal to the popular vote – “same but different”

        You alluded to the uk being a strong economy. Are you aware that the uk private debt to GDP ratio is more than 450%.? This is compared with a public debt to GDP of about 77%. We have no real manufacturing base to speak of as we decided in the 80s and 90s to stick all our eggs in the financial services basket. Whilst the likes of Germany deficit spent into their car ‘miracle’ we insisted on paying down our public debt and destroying our industry and manufacturing infrastructure. No it wasn’t simply because we were lazy.

        The car miracle persists.

        So here we are in ‘recovery’. If we are in recovery why haven’t interest rates gone up?
        Well simply because the economy is being grown by private debt – mostly into another housing bubble. Help to buy should be called help to sell. You increase interest rates , the growth ends.

        As Adair Turner (ex chief exec of FSA) commented solving a recession caused by private debt with more private debt is madness.

        You couple increasing private debt with falling salaries and a depressed economy reducing decent paying jobs and increasing energy costs and you get another recession.

        As for austerity, just look at the student fee hike in England and Wales with the increase to 9k. There was zero return simply due to the fact that the students never reached the 21k salary threshold because there were no jobs that paid well enough. So no loans repaid – costly own goal.

        It took the uk govt weeks to change our benefits and tax arrangements, six years on and the banks are unreformed, underwritten by the public purse. You could call it socialism where the state underwrites the banking system, only it’s socialism of the losses and privatisation of the profits.

        Alistair Darling and Gordon brown drove a humvee (no Iraq pun intended of course) through the heart of the economy and asked us to clean up the mess. Darling wants us to thank him. Calling it a global crisis is all very well but there were plenty of small economies who faired much better than we did due to having a diverse economy.

        It would be excusable once but to allow the banks to continue business as usual is criminal. That’s the ‘safety’ of the uk economy darling wants us to embrace.

      2. Scottie says:

        Can I also ask sure scot if you know where most of the money in the uk economy comes from?

      3. tartanfever says:

        Some good points Scottie.

        Lets reinforce them with this article from Jim Cuthbert on ‘Open Democracy’ showing how the UK financial sector is far too big to be sustainable.

        https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/jim-cuthbert/risk-in-british-economy

        If there was one passage to pull out of this article, it’s this (it also gives another reason for keeping interest rates low which you mentioned)

        ‘the financial system is just one shock away from a further crisis. No less a person than Andy Haldane, Director of financial stability at the Bank of England, identified what he saw as the biggest threat to global financial stability when he gave evidence to the Treasury Select Committee in June 2013: in his words,

        “If I were to single out what for me would be the biggest risk to global financial stability just now it would be a disorderly reversion in the yields of government bonds globally….Let’s be clear, we have intentionally blown up the biggest bond bubble in history.”

        Basically, any shock, (like a significant rise in interest rates), which led to a sharp fall in bond or asset prices could lead to a downward spiral of credit contraction, loan defaults, and further asset price falls – with disastrous consequences for the real economy.’

      4. Maggie says:

        And your posts are totally misleading…

        An independent Scotland’s credit rating will not be impacted in any shape or form by *cough* “walking away” from a debt that isn’t ours.

        Whoever has you cowering in fear over that 1 is now having a great laugh at your expense. And you’re letting them!

  22. Robert W Carruthers says:

    Where is your PLAN B What is your PLAN B. Scotland has no legal liability to a share of £1.4 trillion of UK debt. We could bargain, blackmail, or pick up the ball and walk from the pitch. We will be open for discussions after a YES VOTE. You scratch our back and we’ll etc etc. How would you like “OUR CONTRIBUTION” Pesetas, Euros, Shekels, a new ship for Wills,Whisky, Oil, Gas, Electricity or the “POUND” CHEQUE OR CASH ? Now that’s a ‘PLAN B’ 😀 GAME CHANGER YES.

  23. Scottie says:

    Can’t see any bond reversal. They will continue to kick the can further down the road. This is why it’s becoming more and more important to have an economy built on physical assets, not the tertiary wealth of the city of London – which mr darling tried to claim was shared with the rest of the country.

  24. I have only been reading and posting on Bella for a few weeks, however, never, before today, have I seen as-many pro-No posts on here.

    I think you’re getting to them – which reinforces the opinion I have formed, speaking to people. This is, that, although, while what I like to refer to as the “90-minute patriots” (thanks Jim Sillars) will still vote No in numbers, the grass-roots campaign is winning the argument and the battle.

    Anent the STV debate – I remember, when he led the Tory Party and was Leader of the Opposition, William Hague, in the opinion of the majority of the political commentators, regularly won the weekly battle of Prime Minister’s Questions.

    He never became Prime Minister, however.

    1. Thick fingers – “980-minute” should, of course, be “90-minute”.

  25. Sure Scot says:

    This is sheer economic madness here! There is no hope for some that are brainwashed beyond belief!
    Oh, it looks like NIESR and even Jim Sillars back my view. Looks like there are still some sensible nationalists out there at least.

    http://m.stv.tv/news/scotland/285520-informal-currency-union-risk-for-independent-scotland-says-report/

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28695125

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/economist-warns-independent-scotland-may-have-to-ditch-pound.24989103

  26. Sure Scot says:

    Latest Survation poll out today (conducted on 7th August – the day after the debate).

    Yes 37(-3), No 50 (+4), DK 13(-1).

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2720332/Surge-no-vote-Alex-Salmond-TV-flop-Major-blow-SNP-wake-debate-defeat.html

  27. I couldn’t resist commenting. Exceptionally well written!

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