There is no war in Gaza
Israel conquered Gaza and the Sinai in 7 days in 1956. 6 in the Six Day War.
Gaza remains unoccupied nearly a year now. The living hostages moulder in their dungeons, the dead children of Gaza in their graves.
To occupy Gaza is to end the war and bring the time of “what now?”.
The answer remains Palestinian freedom and dignity in either a Palestinian state or a bi-national democracy.
Beirut
Israeli foreign policy has been one long struggle to stop that question being asked. The occupation and displacement is never the source of resistance, always outside powers – in Cairo, or Damascus, in Beirut or in Tunis, in Baghdad . The wars of ’56, ’67, ’73, ’78 and ’08 were hailed as the end.
Each time, each defeat, was to be the end of the asking, except it never was. So here we are today, the cause of October 7th is outside Gaza. The 6th Gaza war since ‘withdrawal’ is unconnected with the previous 5 and the wider wars . And this time, when Iran is free, the question will not be asked. Except it will.
Relentlessly since October 7th Israel has pounded Lebanon, killing over 600 for the 20 something killed by Hezbollah. Israel has bombed Iranian military bases in Syria, Iranian embassies and set off bombs in Iran. Escalation and expansion of the war is required. Pleading self-defence is not afforded anyone else.
FT Exclusive: Satellite data shows about 3,100 buildings have been damaged or destroyed in Lebanon since September 20 as intense waves of attacks have killed more than 1,300 people. https://t.co/j3JprNmDzW pic.twitter.com/CcbUFgNWkm
— Financial Times (@FT) October 3, 2024
Troops in Lebanon maintain the pretence there is a war in Gaza, not a captive population suspended between the competing impulses to expel, concentrate or kill.
On October 6th Israel thought it had it sorted. Gaza was stable – a open air prison with some regular light massacres and the occasional opéra bouffe pyrotechnics coming back over the wire for Iron Dome to mop up.
The good news is Israel has changed utterly. Naftali Bennett, the opposition leader and war hawk, listed Israeli Arabs in a defence of the charge of apartheid. From 1984 to 1994 South Africa had a tricameral parliament with Houses of Assembly (white), Representatives (Coloured) and Delegates (Indians). If you ignored the bantustans it wasn’t apartheid. That concession, that some were equal, cracked the spirit of the apartheid regime. Netanyahu brought Israeli Arab Islamists into the governing coalition. Israeli politics was broken already on the 6thOctober, the pretence of war is a weak glue. Israel too has it’s what now?’s.
The bad news is between now and that end is a river of blood. The clock is ticking for the US elections that are bewitching spineless American politicians. Israel lacks the power to reoccupy Lebanon, or create another puppet Republic of Salò – but it can kill a lot people. It can’t occupy Iran, but it can try and start a wider war.
Israel was implacably opposed to the Iranian Nuclear deal. A non-nuclear Iran at peace with its neighbours would have been the death of the last existential enemy.
Iran has been able to bomb Israel, but scarcely to kill. It is not an existential threat – unless one of those missiles was nuclear tipped. And here we are. Israeli Minister Amichai Eliyahu talked of nuking Gaza last year.
How the impulses to expel, concentrate or kill resolve themselves is the true horror.
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You know that so-called Palestinians will never accept a two-state solution, or even an one-state solution.. unless it’s Judenfrei
The “Palestinian” leaders have regularly refused a 2 state solution. Have a look at Bill Clinton talking about the great deal he brokered with Arafat who promptly went back to the Middle East & said “no”.
Exactly this.
I don’t understand this – as a copy-editor, I’ve worked on many books about I/P and have very rarely come across a book that says that Palestinians reject the two-state solution. Yes, they may be mightily pissed off at Israel, but never dismissive of the two-state solution: it is, after all, the only way Palestine will continue to exist … and your phrase of ‘so-called Palestinians’ is also suspect – so are people living in Palestine suspect and therefore ‘so-called’? I thought the existence of Palestinians in Palestine was a pretty good indicator of an existing Palestinian population …
You don’t need to read it in books. Just look at the online videos where Muslim women say they are having as many babies as they can so they can be martyrs & Hamas & Hezbollah officials saying they will repeat Oct 7th again & again until all the Jews are dead. Have a look at the Hamas charter or anything on MEMRI news channel. Or Bill Clinton saying he brokered a deal with Yasser Arafat giving him all of Gaza, most of the West Bank & half of Jerusalem. Then Arafat went back to the Middle East & said his Muslim backers wouldn’t accept it. They want ALL of the land, not a two state solution. You can’t negotiate with radical Islam. They don’t work within “democratic” principles.
Israel was created from a violent settler-colonial presence with the aid particularly of Britain. The Balfour Declaration of 1917 gave the green light to the Zionist who were unique as European colonists in not being part of a colonial power. In 1933 the Jewish Agency entered into the Havaara Agreement with the Nazis for Jews to migrate to Mandate Palestine taking money with which to import German products.
During WW2 Ben Gurion insisted that Jews in Palestine did not assist the British war effort and a campaign of terror continued with Lord Moyne and his killed in Cairo by killers instructed by Yitshak Shamir –later to become prime minister of Israel in 1983. The terrorist acts continue to this day with Israel the world leader in extra-territorial assassinations. Cultural as well as political leaders from Palestine are routinely murdered then the Israelis whinge that ” We have no-one to negotiate with” 35% of the UK Labour government are members of Labour Friends of Israel while Jews critical of Israel are expelled for being “the wrong type” of Jew.
Thank you Alisdair for some facts rather than previous opinions.
Palestinian Jews, Muslims and Christians lived in perfect harmony prior to the injection of Zionism into the politics and landscape of the Holy Land in the early 1900’s. There was never any ‘judenfrei’.
Of course after 1948, and ever since, the Zionist (not necessarily Jewish, eg US evangelical Christians) ideology has somehow gained ground, at most in political circles. Their ultimate goal of a greater Zionist apartheid state is clear to see.
The Zionist propaganda machine has overwhelmingly dominated discourse – when most of thinking/feeling human beings see through it.
Arab violence against Jews is often alleged to have begun with the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 or as a result of Israel’s capture in 1967 of territories occupied by Jordan. But even before the Mandate for Palestine was assigned to Great Britain by the Allies at the San Remo Conference (April 1920) and endorsed by the League of Nations (July 1922), Palestinian Arabs were carrying out organized attacks against Jewish communities in Palestine. Systematic violence began in early 1920 with murderous assaults by groups of local Arabs against settlements in the north and by Muslim pilgrims against Jerusalem’s Jews. Again in 1921, Arab rioters attacked Jews in Jaffa and its environs. The primary agitator behind these attacks was Haj Amin al Husseini, who marshalled Arab discontent over Jewish immigration into violent riots.
In 1929, Husseini and his associates fomented a violent jihad as they called upon Muslims to “defend” their holy places from the Jews. As a result, pogroms were carried out across Palestine. Arab villagers sympathetic to Jews were often targets of murderous attacks by their Arab brethren as well. British forces were sharply criticized for not policing the territory adequately, for sympathizing with the Arabs, and for standing by and allowing havoc to be wreaked upon Jewish communities in Palestine.
In 1936, the Arab Higher Committee, led by Grand Mufti Husseini, launched a campaign of anti-Jewish violence across Palestine. Accompanied by a six-month-long strike, the campaign became known as “The Arab Revolt.” As the British increasingly became targets of Arab violence, they used massive force to suppress the aggression. The revolt was finally quashed in 1939. The resulting White Paper of 1939 reversed British commitment to a Jewish State (the raison d’etre of the Mandate) and drastically limited Jewish immigration into Palestine.
Organized anti-Jewish violence began in earnest at the beginning of 1920. In January, Arab villagers attacked Tel Hai, a Jewish settlement in the Galilee near the Syrian border (then under French control), killing two members. Two months later, on March 1, 1920, hundreds of Arabs from a nearby village descended on Tel Hai again, killing six more Jews. Among them was Josef Trumpeldor — a Russian wartime hero who had fought in the Russo-Japanese war and who organized the defense of the settlements in the Galilee.
During the months of March and April, over a dozen Jewish agricultural settlements in the Galilee were attacked by armed Palestinian Arabs. These included Kfar Tavor, Degania, Rosh Pina, Ayelet Hashahar, Mishmar Hayarden, Kfar Giladi and Metulla. (Four of these — Hamara, Kfar Giladi, Metulla and Bnei Yehuda were evacuated after being repeatedly attacked, and the latter was completely abandoned.)
Around the same time, during the Passover and Easter holidays, a group of Palestinian Arab “Nebi Musa” pilgrims (making their annual pilgrimage from Jerusalem to the site they believed was Moses’ tomb), were incited by Haj Amin al Husseini’s anti-Jewish rhetoric to ransack the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem and launch violent anti-Jewish riots. The violence, which took place between April 4 and April 7, claimed the lives of nine people — five Jews and four Arabs — and left 244 wounded, the vast majority Jews. The British military administration, sympathetic to the Arabs, did not allow the Jews to arm themselves.
Ze’ev (Vladimir ) Jabotinsky, a Russian journalist and Zionist activist, organized the defense of the Old City Jews with demobilized soldiers from the Jewish Legion who had participated in the British military campaign against the Ottomans. (Jabotinsky and Trumpeldor had organized and helped lead the Jewish volunteer military units that had fought with the British.) When the British authorities finally quelled the riots, Jabotinsky and 19 associates were arrested for possession of illegal weapons. Jabotinsky was stripped of his commission in Palestine, and was sentenced to 15 years of penal servitude. The Arab aggressors, by contrast, received much lighter sentences. Worldwide protests, however, forced the British to shorten and eventually revoke the sentences of Jabotinsky and his associates (as well as the incarcerated Arabs).
Meanwhile, Haj Amin al Husseini and other Arab leaders continued to incite against the Jews. On May 1, 1921, Arab rioters and policemen with knives, pistols and rifles took to the streets of Jaffa, beating and murdering Jews, and looting Jewish homes and stores. Twenty-seven Jews were killed and 150 were wounded. Attacks by Arab villagers spread to the Jewish communities of Petach Tikvah, Rehovot, Hadera, and as far north as Haifa.
1928-1929: Jihad against Jews
Between 1918 and 1928, the Jewish population in Palestine doubled, to about 150,000. Palestinian Arabs were concerned about this and their leaders, with Haj Amin al Husseini at the forefront, fanned the flames of hatred and suspicion. Husseini, now the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, used the Western (Wailing) Wall — the last remnant of the Jewish Holy Temple compound — as a focal point for his anti-Zionist campaign.
In September 1928, a small group of Jews erected a “mechitza” (a divider to separate men and women during prayers) for Yom Kippur prayers at the Western Wall. The British forcibly dismantled the divider, but Husseini used this incident as a pretext to incite Muslims. He accused the Jews of attempting to seize Muslim holy sites, including the al Aqsa Mosque.
A virulent propaganda campaign calling for jihad against the Jews resulted in the frequent beating and stoning of Jews worshipping at the Wall and culminated in widespread, murderous riots across Palestine in August 1929.
August 15, 1929 was Tisha B’Av, the day on which Jews commemorate the destruction of the Holy Temple. Thousands of Jews marched to the Wall to protest British restrictions on Jewish prayer there, and to reaffirm their Jewish connection to the holy site. They displayed their nationalistic fervor by singing Hatikvah (later to become Israel’s national anthem). The following day, mobs of armed Arab worshippers inflamed by anti-Jewish sermons, fell upon Jewish worshippers at the Wall, destroying Jewish prayer books and notes placed between the stones of the wall. On August 17, a Jewish boy was killed by Arabs during ensuing riots in the Jerusalem neighborhood of Bukharan.
According to the Davar newspaper of August 20, 1929, incitement against the Jews was rampant, especially in the Jerusalem and Hebron area. Rumors were spread that Jews had cursed Islam and intended to take over their holy places; Muslims were told that it was their duty to take revenge. “Defend the Holy Places” became the battle cry.
1929 Hebron Massacre
According to Dutch-Canadian journalist Pierre Van Passen who was in Palestine at the time, fabricated pictures of Muslim holy sites in ruins were handed out to Hebron Arabs as they were leaving their mosques on Friday, August 23, 1929. The captions on the pictures claimed that the Dome of the Rock was bombed by the Zionists. That evening, armed Arabs broke into the Yeshiva (Talmudic academy) and murdered the lone student they found. The following day, an enraged Arab mob wielding knives, axes, and iron bars destroyed the Yeshiva and slaughtered the rest of the students there. A delegation of Jewish residents on their way to the police station was lynched by an Arab mob. The mob then proceeded to massacre Hebron’s Jews — both Sephardi and Ashkenazi — who had lived peacefully with their Arab neighbors for years. With only one British officer supervising, the Arab police made no attempt to prevent the massacre. In total, sixty-seven Jews were killed and 60 were wounded. The Jewish community in Hebron was destroyed.
In 1931, the community attempted to rebuild, but during the riots of 1936, the British authorities evacuated Hebron’s Jewish residents and did not allow them to return to their homes. Hebron, one of the four cities holy to Jews, which, for many centuries, had a Jewish presence, remained Judenrein for over 30 years. It was only in 1968, after Hebron came under Israel’s control, that Jews resettled there.
1929 Safed Massacre
Barely a week after the Hebron massacre, Safed, another one of the four Jewish holy cities, was subject to the same depredations. On August 29, 1929, Arabs from Safed and nearby villages assaulted and murdered their Jewish neighbors, burning and pillaging their homes. Witnesses called it a pogrom. Eighteen Jews were killed, 40 wounded, and 200 houses were burned and looted.
1936-39
Toward the end of 1935 and the beginning of 1936, Arab demonstrations were held against Jewish immigration and purchase of land in Palestine. Tensions between the Arab and Jewish population grew. On April 15, 1936, Arabs attacked Jewish vehicles on the highway and murdered three Jews. The following night, two Arabs were shot by unidentified masked gunmen, in what the Arab community believed to be a reprisal attack by Jews. The gunmen were not identified, but soon false rumors were spread that Jews had murdered Arabs in the Jaffa area, upon which a Jewish bus was attacked and local Jews were assaulted. Within days, Arab mobs were assaulting and murdering random Jews and destroying Jewish property.
The violence — including murders, ambushes, plunder and arson — quickly spread throughout the country, and was accompanied by a general Arab strike to put a stop to Jewish immigration and the sale of property to Jews, and to demand the establishment of an Arab national government. It was the beginning of a three-year-long campaign of terrorism against Jews and British soldiers and officials, orchestrated by the Arab High Command led by Haj Amin al Husseini and known as the “Arab Revolt.”
Onslaught of Arab Terror, 1936:
April 15, 1936: 3 Jews in Tulkarm killed by Arabs.
April 19: 9 Jews in Jaffa killed by Arabs.
April 20: 5 Jews in Jaffa killed by Arabs.
April 22: Jewish woman in Jaffa killed by Arabs.
April 26: Jewish houses in Nazareth and Beit Shean burned by Arabs.
April 26: An Arab mob beats up Jewish boy in Jerusalem.
April 28: 4 Jewish farm workers in Migdal injured by Arabs.
April 29: Arabs burn down a Jewish forest in Balfouriya.
April 29: Arab mob forms in Jerusalem, but British police break it up before Jews harmed.
May 1: 2 Jews in Haifa killed by Arabs.
May 3: Arab mob burns down Jewish timber yard in Haifa.
May 4: Jewish orchards in Mishmar Ha-Emek burned by Arabs.
May 4: Arabs destroy 200 acres of wheat in Ramat David.
May 5: 500 orange trees uprooted in Tel Mond by Arabs.
May 7: Arabs fire on Jewish bus in Beit Dagan.
May 10: Arabs burn crops and haystacks in Givat Ada.
May 10: Arabs uproot newly planted olive grove in Zikhron Yaakov.
May 11: Arabs burn Jewish crops in Ramat David.
May 12: Arabs burn threshing floor in Zikhron Yaakov.
May 13: 2 elderly Jews murdered by Arabs in Old City.
May 13: Jewish shops in Haifa stoned by Arabs.
May 13: More orchards burned in Mishmar Ha-Emek.
May 16: 3 Jews in Jerusalem exiting a cinema are shot dead by Arabs.
May 19: Arabs kill a Jew in the Old City of Jerusalem.
May 20: 2 Jews wounded during Arab attack on bus.
May 24: Arabs severely wound a Jewish guard at Majd el Krum.
May 25: Arabs kill a Jew at Hebrew University.
From May 30 – June 13, 1936, in more than 11 attacks, the Arabs destroy over 30,000 trees planted by Jews, as well as many fruit orchards,crops and barns. Telephone wires are cut throughout the district, roads are barricaded, and bridges and culverts are mined. Volunteers from Syria and Iraq aid the Arabs in their attacks.
May 31: Jew at Givat Shaul killed by Arabs.
June 1: Jewish bus passenger killed by Arab rifle fire.
June 5: 5 Jewish passengers injured when Arabs threw bomb at bus in Haifa.
June 6: Jewish girl severely injured by Arab fire while traveling on bus.
June 8: Arabs attack Jews on their way to the Dead Sea Potash works.
In the third month of terror (June 16 – July 17) campaign, 9 Jews were killed, mostly in Arab ambushes on buses, and 75,000 trees planted by Jews were destroyed.
I don’t know where you dug that history up from – you gave no references.
Sure the Arabs did not like the growing influx of Zionists – and associated terrorist groups.
Here is a wiki link for you to read at your leisure. I struggled thru your copy/paste.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence#:~:text=In%20the%20pre%2Dstate%20period,to%20advance%20their%20political%20goals.
Wikipedia is not a reliable source for any subject, but particularly political ones.
If you want to use the term Zionism correctly please read this.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/religion/2024/10/what-is-zionism?
You post an article by Chief Rabbi Mirvis which I did read. I was not surprised by what he said. His job is to defend Zionism unfortunately.
The article would have been more useful written by a less biased author.
Wiki may not be perfect but it is bound to be less biased than Mirvis.
Wikipedia can be edited by anyone & they don’t have to even attach their name to the edits!
Why are you afraid to read an article by a Jewish rabbi?
Reply to Rae Webster: Cute that you disparage the these days mostly expert-edited Wikipedia, yet provide scant references for your own claims, and cite unspecified ‘online videos’ as irrefutable proof of the intentions of all Muslims. I think perhaps you need to step away from Facebook for a while – try reading some of these newfangled ‘book’ things that you also seem to consider to be such unreliable sources
“Before Israel, Jews and Muslims lived in peace and perfect harmony”
No… they really didn’t.
This is how DHIMMITUDE works.
All this BEFORE any Zionists stepped onto the land.
622–627: ethnic cleansing of Jews from Mecca and Medina, (Jewish boys publicly inspected for pubic hair. If they had any, they were executed)
629: 1st Alexandria Massacres, Egypt
622–634: extermination of the 14 Arabian Jewish tribes
822–861: Islamic empire passes law that Jews must wear yellow stars, (a lot like Nazi Germany), Caliph al-Mutawakkil
1106: Ali Ibn Yousef Ibn Tashifin of Marrakesh decrees death penalty for any local Jew, including his Jewish Physician, and Military general.
1033: 1st Fez Pogrom, Morocco
1148: Almohadin of Morocco gives Jews the choice of converting to Islam, or expulsion
1066: Granada Massacre, Muslim-occupied Spain
1165–1178: Jews nationwide were given the choice (under new constitution) convert to Islam or die, Yemen
1165: chief Rabbi of the Maghreb burnt alive. The Rambam flees for Egypt.
1220: tens of thousands of Jews killed by Muslims after being blamed for Mongol invasion, Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Egypt
1270: Sultan Baibars of Egypt resolved to burn all the Jews, a ditch having been dug for that purpose; but at the last moment he repented, and instead exacted a heavy tribute, during the collection of which many perished.
1276: 2nd Fez Pogrom, Morocco
1385: Khorasan Massacres, Iran
1438: 1st Mellah Ghetto massacres, North Africa
1465: 3rd Fez Pogrom, Morocco (11 Jews left alive)
1517: 1st Safed Pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1517: 1st Hebron Pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
Marsa ibn Ghazi Massacre, Ottoman Libya
1577: Passover Massacre, Ottoman empire
1588–1629: Mahalay Pogroms, Iran
1630–1700: Yemenite Jews under strict Shi’ite ‘dhimmi’ rules
1660: 2nd Safed Pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1670: Mawza expulsion, Yemen
1679–1680: Sanaa Massacres, Yemen
1747: Mashhad Massacres, Iran
1785: Tripoli Pogrom, Ottoman Libya
1790–92: Tetuan Pogrom, Morocco (Jews of Tetuan stripped naked, and lined up for Muslim perverts)
1800: new decree passed in Yemen, Jews are forbidden to wear new clothing, or good clothing. Jews are forbidden to ride mules or donkeys, and were occasionally rounded up for long marches naked through the Roob al Khali desert.
1805: 1st Algiers Pogrom, Ottoman Algeria
1808: 2nd 1438: 1st Mellah Ghetto Massacres, North Africa
1815: 2nd Algiers Pogrom, Ottoman Algeria
1820: Sahalu Lobiant Massacres, Ottoman Syria
1828: Baghdad Pogrom, Ottoman Iraq
1830: 3rd Algiers Pogrom, Ottoman Algeria
1830: ethnic cleansing of Jews in Tabriz, Iran
1834: 2nd Hebron Pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1834: Safed Pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1839: Massacre of the Mashadi Jews, Iran
1840: Damascus Affair following first of many blood libels, Ottoman Syria
1844: 1st Cairo Massacres, Ottoman Egypt
1847: Dayr al-Qamar Pogrom, Ottoman Lebanon
1847: ethnic cleansing of the Jews in Jerusalem, Ottoman Palestine
1848: 1st Damascus Pogrom, Syria
1850: 1st Aleppo Pogrom, Ottoman Syria
1860: 2nd Damascus Pogrom, Ottoman Syria
1862: 1st Beirut Pogrom, Ottoman Lebanon
1866: Kuzguncuk Pogrom, Ottoman Turkey
1867: Barfurush Massacre, Ottoman Turkey
1868: Eyub Pogrom, Ottoman Turkey
1869: Tunis Massacre, Ottoman Tunisia
With Common Sense – I agree that there is a long history of different kinds of Jewish persecution. Since the emergence of Zionism (early 1900s) and the creation of the Israel Zionist state (1948) unsurprisingly antisemitism (and islamophobia) has grown.
I presume you know how many peace agreements have been brokered since 1947…. Each of which offered Palestine its own state. Every single one of these were rejected by Palestine but accepted by Israel: The UN Partition Plan (1947), Madrid Conference (1991), Oslo Accords (1993–1995), Camp David Summit (2000), Taba Summit (2001), Road Map for Peace (2003), Annapolis Conference (2007), 2010 Direct Talks, John Kerry-led Peace Talks (2013–2014), and the Trump Peace Plan (2020). And don’t forget the Gaza withdrawal in 2005. Not one of these have resulted in any less desire by the Arabs to annihilate the Jews. The Jews have been consistently willing to give Palestine its own state, and in fact were the only people who agreed to the recommended partition plan in 1947…. which was rejected the Arabs and also the British. Palestinians do not want their own state. They want Jews out of the entire Middle East. They want the Jew to go back to where they came from… and because we have no state to return to, what they really want is for Jews to die.
Golds Meir was correct. “You can’t negotiate with people who have come to kill you”.
The Jewish caliphate is founded on the risible notion that some silly old god with a side-hustle in real-estate gave his “chosen people” — how racist can you get? a tract of land. It’s formation is rooted in violence with the early prime ministers all terrorist leaders — Ben Gurion and Menachen Begin had letter bombs sent to Churchill and Bevin in 1946 and organised the murder of Lord Moyne and his driver in Cairo in November 1944. UN represntative to Palestine Count Bernadotte murdered in 1948. One could go on.
do you think outside looking in opinions/reportage is more or less likely to create more or less violence globally, nationally, locally or if you prefer locally, nationally, globally (whatever these amorphous concepts actually mean to one particular individual’s intellect), & do you as an individual accept you have free will or are you prepared to continue blaming maw & paw for pretty much athing
I listen to and read what people say or write and make my own mind up based on my own morals.
Isn’t that the way to do it? Is there another way? I do change my ideas sometimes but not often.
I wouldn’t want to get involved in this battle of histories, politics and ideologies, but just to remind you there are people dying out there. Real people. This is not a series of numbers and it doesn’t matter how it started or when it started very few of the bairns killed out there had much of a say in it, nor do many of the adults. Only one person commits murder, the murderer and unfortunately there’s a lot of them around in the middle east. Justifying killing of people with no power (and I’m not just referring to Palestinians here – all non politicos have no power) is disgraceful and continuing to excuse it by dredging out who started things is to dehumanise real victims. It’s time to stop all of this, not justify, excuse and blame. Time to look at ourselves, the things we do and the way we look at the world.
indeed, more introspection and less projection would be nice
The sooner the World get rid of Iran mad mullahs and their ilk, the sooner normal people would be sleeping in peace at night. Unfortunately, when all that seems to matter is to keep the price of oil down, nothing will change anytime soon
whereas Israel kills indiscriminately, Iran targetted air force base in Israel
I agree.
WT – many atrocities have been buried others eternally enshrined, the most notable the Holocaust, how do you explain that?.
Time to look at ourselves and what we do – great idea – when we look at ourself we automatically compare our self with others unless we have a deep spiritual or religious leaning. Within the law we are generally free to do what we wish – I’m a pro-Palestinian activist and help raise funds for them. It is the best I can do in my situation. What do you do?
I look at the world and see billions of humans with different cultures, religions, unstable political systems, largely struggling against poverty, climate change and often tyranny. To me each human is precious – the global system that is prevalent does not respect this.
You suggested that humans in the Middle East are more likely murderers – you might clarify that.
Final point – who murdered 20,000 women and children in Gaza over the last year?
F35 F16 pilots?
Their Israeli military and political leaders and supporters?
The USA government with UK assistance?
US taxpayers?
I could go on.
We are all involved in this tragedy of the 21st century.
Examining your navel will not prevent the situation worsening.
There may be a human being with enough compassion and wisdom to end it.
That’s what I hope.
aye but then that one person shall be the target, sacrifice, bogeyman, witch, or evil incarnate according to the weight of opposition against such a martyr, so please don’t volunteer.
Peter, thanks for your response, but I don’t know how you got what you got from my post. Where you got the ‘humans in the Middle East are more likely murderers’ is a figment of your imagination. Perhaps you need to look at why you projected that onto me.
You say “To me each human is precious – the global system that is prevalent does not respect this.” same here, as I said real people are dying out there. Unfortunately, perhaps unwittingly, you yourself turn the deaths of real people into an abstraction, to numbers, classifying them into factions or sides. It does not resolve the situation.
You made a list of questions asking who the murderer is, you need to ask yourself that too, but to me they all are.
You say ” I’m a pro-Palestinian activist and help raise funds for them. It is the best I can do in my situation. What do you do?” I don’t understand why that is relevant. The inference here is that you are doing something and I am doing nothing – how does that help? For what its worth, I work with the elderly on a zero hours contract. What has that got to do with anything? Zilch but I suppose I might be able to take some moral superiority next time care-homes comes up as a subject.
I might be wrong, and I apologise if I am, but you seem to let your anger get in the way of your objectivity. You have become part of the factionalism that inhibits solutions – if indeed there are any. Look at the rest of the posts on here, it’s two sides and for all the arguing and for all the money you and perhaps they raise it does not solve the problem. The problem has been going on for decades all around the world in different countries where the ordinary person, who has no power, ends up being the gun fodder and victims of the governing classes. It isn’t religion, it isn’t race it’s always the same, but dressed up in those coats.
Leaving aside the history and politics of this issue and concentrating on humanitarian concerns.
I hope everyone can agree that each innocent death is a tragedy.
1500 innocent Israeli civilians were killed or taken hostage in 7th October atrocity.
30,000 innocent women and children have been killed since IDF entered Gaza – this is highly likely to be a considerable underestimate as virtually everyone agrees there will be many dead civilians buried in the rubble. This also ignores the destruction of many homes and civilians being moved around like pawns with starvation and disease being an ongoing risk.
The current rate of death is 20 Palestinian civilians being killed for each Israeli civilian. This is stretching the definition of self defence beyond belief.
To those correspondents claiming that Palestinians want to eradicate Israeli’s I would merely say look at the evidence of last 12 months. The Palestinians do not have military capacity to eradicate Israeli state regardless of whether they want to or not. The Israeli government is the most powerful military In region and are backed up by USA the most powerful military country on planet. The IDF are showing by actions, as opposed to words, in real time that they can (and possibly want to) eradicate Palestine and it’s population.
This is complete nonsense. Israel is eliminating terrorists. Terrorists are not innocent civilians. If Hamas & Hezbollah choose to hide in tunnels under hospitals & schools & use their population as human shields & shoot them if they try to leave, there will be civilian casualties but very experienced British senior soldiers & experts in urban warfare have said that it is amazing how few casualties there have been compared to other urban wars.
Why did the leaders of Hamas manage to have huge personal wealth & live in luxury in Qatar? Because Western nations gave Gaza huge sums of money & aid which was used to build tunnels to attack Israel, stolen by the Hamas leaders & none used to improve the lives of the Gazan population.
Israel is doing the world a favour while fighting for its survival but maybe you have to be a woman to appreciate the horror that is radical Islam.
I’ll ignore your abusive, hysterical diatribe which says everything about your perspective.
The 30,000 women and children (and counting) were not terrorists. They were not killed by Hamas they were killed by IDF.
Please deal in facts and stop indulging in propaganda.
You do not appear to think that an innocent civilian Palestinian has the same worth as an innocent civilian Israeli?
So I’m hysterical because I am a woman daring to contradict a male? *snort*. Have you looked at what is happening to women in Afghanistan & Iran? Perhaps not.
I have no idea or interest in what sex you are but being a woman if you feel offended by the term hysterical I apologise.
15,000 Palestinian children (and counting) have been killed so far by IDF munitions. That is a kill rate of 10 Palestinian children for every 1 innocent Israeli citizen killed on 7th October. I grieve for all innocent civilians killed and cannot conceive how anyone with a conscience can justify this scale of killing of children. It is uniformly accepted in all religions and law that children are innocent.
I ask you again do you consider a Palestinian life to be of equal worth as an Israeli life?
Israel is the last bastion from radical Islam conquering the West. The radical Islamists say that Islam is incompatible with democracy.
Israel is a vile racist Jewish caliphate rooted in violence. Zionism was dreamt up by delusional syphilitic Theodore Herzl who infected his poor wife with gonorrhea before she commited suicide — no evidnce that he was a necrophiliac. Their son and daughter also commited suicide..Not a happy family. Zionism as an Ideology is linked to Nazism with an emphasis on racial purity and land acquisition in other countries.
No Rae you are not even attempting to answer my question and hiding behind religious stereotyping,
I am glad you care about women’s rights but wonder if that extends to the 15,000 Palestinian women killed by IDF in Gaza.
I have no truck with fundamentalist religions of any type but having a cursory knowledge of history I am aware that if you demonise people, bomb them and their homes you are potentially driving people into the arms of fundamentalists.
An immediate ceasefire is the only way to stop the killing of all innocent civilians and to start the long process towards some sort of peace for all people in the region.
Agree –Israelis are vile bastards and a blight on humanity
Israel is holding the line between the democratic West and the Islamification of the rest of the world. Wake up people.
Rae, you have gone down too many internet rabbit holes, and appear to have succumbed to fascist conspiracy theories. I expect you have lost friends and family over this already. Seek help.
Jews lived with Arabs happily for centuries in Irag where 30% of Bagdad population were Jews before Mossad carried out “black flag” operations after 1948 to scare them into fleeing. Jews also lived in with the Moors in Spain until both groups were driven out by Ferdinand and Isobella in 1492. After that they lived in Norh Africa with Morocco as particular haven during WW2. About 8,000 Jews live in Tehran and refuse to leave for the despicable Jewish caliphate aka Israel
Not even brave enough to use your own name?
Rae – not only are my eyes wide open but so is my mind. The way Israel is throwing its military might around at present and seeking revenge as opposed to justice for October 7th by killing so many innocent civilians is only going to lead to a wish for revenge in survivors. The way that some countries in the west are condoning Israel’s gross overreaction while claiming the moral high ground is only going to alienate many other nations. Far from fighting radicalism the last year has only sown the seeds for it to grow.
It is obvious to all peoples interested in peace that an immediate ceasefire in Gaza is the only way to stop the killing and start the process of trying to find peace and justice for all people in the region. This is also in all probability the only way, the remaining hostages will be able to return to Israel alive.
Most military experts now believe that Hamas is militarily degraded so the onus on creating a ceasefire lies with Israeli government.
The Iranian govt funds and trains both Hamas and Hezbollah,neither of whom act without the authorisation of Iran.
No surprise then that many ordinary Iranians are openly celebrating Israels actions against their common enemy.
Hopefully Israel will now seize the moment and try and topple the theocratic govt of Iran and once again the Persians and Jews will be able to live in peace.
Prior to Oct 7th many Arab govts (Saudi Arabia in particular) were coming to a reapproacment with Israel which is why Iran ordered Hamas to attack.
It is Iran that is at the root cause of the current problems and many peoples visceral hatred of both Israel and Jews blinds them to this simple fact.
Mossadeq became Prime Minister in Iran in 1951. Set about gaining control of the oil industry so the US and UK organised a coup to oust him in August 1953. The Overseas BBC broadcast the coded signal to launch the coup. Most Britains and Americans will be ignorant of this but be assured that Iranians are not. The Shah was back in power but became increasingly unpopular with a vicious secret police called SAVAK. When the Shah was ousted following popular protests especially among industrial workers, both UK and US refused him sanctuary so he fled to Egypt where he died. It was only recently to secure the release of a women held hostage that UK refunded payment the Shah regime had paid for tanks which were never delivered. Israel would do well to note that after causing the death of around 2m. Asians during Vietnam war, the US walked away. Similarly in Irag and Afghanistan. Today about 8,000 Jews are happy to continue living in Tehran rather than in the Jewish caliphate aka Israel.
What did or did not go on in 1953 is irrelevant.
Do we hold it against the Germans for what they did in 1939-45?
No, we don’t as most sensible people let bygones be bygones and get on with our lives in peace and harmony.
As for the 8k Jews who you claim are ‘happy’ to live in Iran, have you asked them? Or could it possibly be that the Iranian govt doesn’t allow them to leave?
As I say your hatred of Israel blinds you to the current reality.
John – the Washington Institute has looked at October 7th attack and states that though Hamas & Hezbollah are funded and trained by Iran US Intelligence Agencies have concluded that Iran were not informed of 7th October attack.
Hamas and Hezbollah have both military and political wings in Gaza and Lebanon and enjoy a degree of popular support built upon the activities of Israel over the years in both territories.
From what I have read Hamas we’re concerned that other Middle East countries were ignoring and sidelining the Palestinian situation and that was strategy behind the 7th October attacks. The IDF’s overwhelming use of force may well degrade both organisations militarily but the large number of civilians killed by IDF and dehumanisation of people living in the affected areas will inevitably lead to increase support for these terrorist organisations.
History shows us that terrorist organisations flourish where people feel they are oppressed.
Iran, an authoritarian regime, does not want further escalation of conflict at this time as they have a lot of internal problems.I would suggest that the evidence of actions would show that the current leadership in Israel are trying to draw Iran into a wider conflict for short term political reasons in both Israel and USA.
Any wider term conflict will have unpredictable consequences which are highly unlikely to be beneficial to anyone in the Middle East or beyond.
John,
Who knows?
Time will tell.
If only the countries surrounding Israel were (like Israel) secular/democratic societies with full rights for women and gay people.
Any ideas as to why their not?
Could it be possibly down to the religion they follow?
For better or worse the people of the west and the vast majority of Jewish people gave up on the ideas of the bible long ago but for better or worse the majority of Muslims still believe in a book written well over a thousand years ago.
Muhammed commanded his followers to kill Jews and unfortunately many of his followers in the C21st still believe in this crap,not least in Tehran
Could this possibly be the root cause of the problems of the region?
Yes, regime change in some of the ME countries will benefit 51% of the population – women plus LGB people.
you might end up with the Taliban – as Afghanistan did after its US led regime change
can you see the future? i doubt it
Iranian women are already being killed for not covering their heads correctly, stoned for all alleged adultery etc. Maybe you should read some more about women’s rights in the Middle East?
if you want Islamic states to change their behaviour to women, which I do, is it a good idea to bomb them?
Clear Hezbollah out of Iran & Lebanon & the majority population in these countries will remove the totalitarian Islamic regimes. Lebanon was created as a Christian country & Iran was a secular society until the Mullahs took control in 1979. The Shah said if he fell, the Middle East would too. Unfortunately he was correct. Women know how easily & rapidly their rights can be removed.
What drivel. The Zionist basis for the creation of Israel on Mandate Palestine is the fantasy that some god with a hustle in real-estate gave his “chosen people” a tract of land. Islamic people tolerated Jews in their midst for centuries and a small number of Jews lived in Palestine during the Ottoman period under the “millet” system whereby each group organise as the chose but could not own territory. You really do need to get better informed.
I am not trying to defend the Iranian regime I am merely pointing out what is occurring in real time in Gaza & Lebanon.
If we are discussing fundamentalism and extremism the Israeli cabinet also contains some religious fundamentalists and right wing extremists. The USA is not immune to right wing (so called) Christian fundamentalism many of whom are ardent supporters of the current Israeli regime and predictors of Armageddon.
I would always defend the rights of women and minorities wherever they are. This also includes the most fundamental human rights of civilians in Palestine and Lebanon to a home , food and life which Israel is flagrantly ignoring.
The fact that our government and other western democracies are not calling out these breaches in international humanitarian law undermines their own credibility as the defenders of international law.
If your friend is making a mistake which may boomerang on themselves and their friends you tell him/her you don’t say I back you regardless you tell them the truth. Jo Biden is being strung along by Netanyahu who is keen to keep this conflict going in the hope that Trump win’s upcoming US election. The UK government is doing what too many UK governments just agreeing with them. This is what upsets so many people in UK of all religions and no religious beliefs.
It is possible to have empathy both for the 1200 Israelis killed last year (not all of whom were Jews) and for the 40000 Palestinians killed since ( not all of whom were Muslims). Both Netanyahu’s government/settlers and Hamas/Hezbollah are part of the problem, not part of any solution.
Hamas came into being in Gaza to provide leadership for the Palestinian resistance during the second intifada. Hezbolla emerged during the earlier Israeli invasion of Lebanon ( this is the fourth). Anti-colonial struggles are seldom pleasant — think of the Algerian campaign against 130 years of French colonialism or the 2m Asians killed as a result of US campaign against Vietnamese independence. UK’s last colonial campaign was against the Yemenis in Aden — remember the brutal UK commander , “Mad Mich” who went on to become a Tory MP. UK had castrated resistance fighters in Kenya and dumped all the evidence in the India ocean on independence.
Paddy – I hold no truck with Hamas but the reality is that they are supported by a significant section of Palestinian popular opinion. With each civilian death that Israel inflicts in Palestine and the destruction of infrastructure I am afraid history shows us that support for Hamas will probably increase. This inevitably means that Hamas political wing will have to be involved in a peace treaty in some way or any peace settlement will be at best fragile and at worst meaningless.
I would also cast your mind back to 1980’s when if you had suggested IRA would be involved in a peace process with UK government you would have been treated with disbelief.
My reference was to Hamas’ current policy. Of course it’s possible that Hamas will change course completely, abandon its military stragegy and its opposition to the existence of the state of Israel, and embrace a political settlement – like the IRA did in the Six Counties. And indeed as the PLO did before them. That is certainly what’s needed, and such political options might perhaps emerge in future. But Hamas as it is now was created in opposition to the PLO, with the tacit support of the Israeli far right, who used them to justify maintaining Israel’s roadblock against any political settlement at all. This is well evidenced: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas. That cynical strategy has led to disaster for Palestinians and Israelis.
Yes. Israelis behaved with typical arrogance and entitlement. How could people be so foolish as to live within a kilometre of a fence confining 2,4 million people in the World’s largest open-air prison.. This is the fifth attack on Lebanon. The 1982 invasion led to the formation of Hezbollah and ended in failure as did subsequent attacks. Israel is a Jewish caliphate rooted in violence — about 100 Palestinians are killed for every one Israeli.
Paddy – you are correct in your analysis of Hamas.
External pressure will be required to bring about a moderation on leaders of both Israeli government and Hamas.
Correct me if I am wrong, but many Arab countries historically denied right of Israel to exist, but have adopted a more pragmatic approach over time.
The facts are that though Hamas rhetoric may threaten Israel with destruction they do not have anything like the military capability to carry this out and in addition Israel has a sophisticated defence system in place as well. The reality we are witnessing is the military might of Israel destroying Palestine in real time and Palestine has minimal defensive capability to prevent this.
Regardless of difficulties of longer term peace it is obvious to me that an immediate ceasefire is required to stop the killing of civilians and free hostages. I would also suggest that when one side has such an overwhelming offensive and defensive advantage the onus is surely on that side to take first step.