2007 - 2020

Scotland is a European Country

Crw4ATAWEAIRsvvScotland voted to remain in the EU.

Scotland voted in favour of the UK staying in the EU by 62% to 38% – with all 32 council areas backing Remain. We did so despite being told explicitly that the only way to stay in the EU was to vote ‘No’ in the independence referendum. Now we will be removed from Europe against our will.

Since then former Chancellor Nigel Lawson has boasted that:“Brexit gives us the opportunity to make the UK the most dynamic and freest country in the whole of Europe: in a word, to finish the job that Margaret Thatcher started” and Justice Secretary Liz Truss has confirmed the plans to axe the European Human Rights Act.

We want to protect the EU citizens who currently work in Scotland.

We’d like to hear your views if you’re an EU migrant living and working in this country and we’re offering to publish and translate from your own language.

How has the Brexit vote altered your view of Britain?
How has the Brexit vote altered your view of Scottish independence?
What are your fears about what will happen as a result of Brexit?
Would you support Scotland to remain a member of the EU?
What are the consequences for you, your friends and family?

We do not assume any opinion from either the Scottish or the European referendums. We are keen to hear from all points of view. We’ll be publishing in various languages over the next few days to put this call out.

Tell us your views in 800 words or less. Write to us at bellasletters@yahoo.co.uk
#EU2

Flag-Pins-Poland-Scotland_600x600Szkocja głosowała za pozostaniem w Unii Europejskiej.

W czerwcowym referendum Szkocja głosowała za tym aby Zjednoczone Królestwo Wilkiej Brytanii i Irlandii Północnej pozostało w Unii Europejskiej. Za pozostaniem opowiedziało się 62 % obywateli, przeciwko – 32 %. Wszystkie okręgi wyborcze Szkocji głosowały za pozostaniem w Unii.

Podczas referendum o niepodległość Szkocji w 2014 przekonywano nas, że jedynym sposobem na pozostanie w Unii było głosowanie na „nie”. Teraz, mimo iż cała Szkocja głosowała w referendum europejskim za pozostaniem w Unii, grozi nam usunięcie z Europy wbrew naszej woli.

Były kanclerz skarbu, Nigel Lawson chełpił się, że „Brexit to szansa, aby uczynić Zjednoczone Królestwo najbardziej dynamicznym i wolnym krajem w całej Europie: jednym słowem, aby dokończyć dzieło rozpoczęte przez Margaret Thatcher”. Jednocześnie, minister sprawiedliwości, Liz Truss potwierdziła, że planuje usunięcie obowiązującej w Królestwie unijnej ustawy o prawach człowieka.

Chcemy chronić obywateli Unii Europejskiej którzy obecnie pracują w Szkocji.

Jeśli jesteś migrantem z Unii Europejskiej żyjącym i pracującym w tym kraju, chcielibyśmy znać Twoją opinię. Proponujemy ją opublikować uprzednio tłumacząc z Twojego języka ojczystego.

Jak wynik głosowania w referendum europejskim zmienił Twój pogląd na temat Wielkiej Brytanii?
Jak wynik głosowania w referendum europejskim zmienił Twój pogląd na temat szkockiej niepodległości?
Jakie masz obawy związane z konsekwencjami Brexitu?
Jak duże jest Twoje wsparcie dla Szkocji, aby pozostała członkiem Unii Europejskiej?
Jakie są konsekwencje Brexit’u dla Ciebie, Twoich przyjaciół i rodziny?

Nie ograniczamy się do opinii ze szkockiego czy europejskiego referendum. Interesuje nas każdy punkt widzenia.

Przedstaw nam swoją opinię w 800 słowach (maksymalnie). Napisz do nas na bellasletters@yahoo.co.uk

**
indexLa Scozia ha votato per restare nell’ Unione Europea.

La Scozia ha votato a favore della permanenza nel Regno Unito nell’Unione Europea con una percentuale del 62% contro il 38%- tutte e 32 i collegi elettorali hanno votato ‘Remain’. Questo e’ successo nonostante fossimo stati detti esplicitamente che l’unico modo per rimanere parte dell’Unione Europea fosse votare ‘No’ nel referendum sull’ indipendenza di due anni fa. Ora non saremo piu’ parte dell’Unione Europea- contro la nostra volonta’.

Vari politici hanno espresso la loro opinione su quello che la Brexit comportera’: l’ex Ministro dell’Economia e Finanza Nigel Lawson ha annunciato che “la Brexit ci da’ l’opportunita’ di trasformare il Regno Unito in una delle nazioni piu’ dinamiche e libere di tutta Europa: in breve, ci da’ l’opportunita’ di finire il lavoro iniziato da Margaret Thatcher”, mentre il ministro della Giustizia Liz Truss ha confermato che non faremo piu’ parte dellaConvenzione Europea sui diritti umani.

Noi vogliamo proteggere i cittadini dell’Unione Europea che lavorano in Scozia.

Se sei un immigrato o un’immigrata che vive e lavora in Scozia, ci piacerebbe sapere cosa ne pensi. Ti offriamo la possibilita’ di avere il tuo pensiero tradotto dall’Italiano e pubblicato.

Il voto sulla Brexit ha cambiato la tua opinione del Regno Unito?
Il voto sulla Brexit ha cambiato la tua opinione sull’Indipendenza?
Quali sono le tue paure sugli sviluppi che accadranno come consequenza della Brexit?
Saresti a favore della Scozia che preservi la sua affiliazione all’Unione Europea?
Quali sono le conseguenze del voto per te, i tuoi amici e la tua famiglia?

Vogliamo ascoltare la tua opinione, non importa cio’ che pensi di entrambi i referendum.
Vogliamo acoltare tutti i punti di vista.

Dicci cio’ che pensi in massimo 800 parole. Scrivici a bellaletters@yahoo.co.uk

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indexEscocia votó a permanecer en la UE.

Escocia votó a favor de que Reino Unido permanezca en la UE, con un margen de 62% a 38%, con cada uno de los 32 distritos electorales apoyando la opción de Permanecer.

Votamos así después de que nos habían dicho que la única forma de permanecer en la Unión Europea pasaba por votar No en el referéndum sobre la independencia. Ahora nos van a sacar de Europa en contra de la voluntad del pueblo escocés.

En las últimas semanas, el antiguo canciller Nigel Lawson se ha jactado de que “Brexit nos da la oportunidad de hacer el Reino Unido el país más dinámico y libre de toda Europa. Dicho de otra manera, de concluir el trabajo empezado por Margaret Thatcher.” Por su parte, Liz Truss, Ministra de Justicia, ha confirmado la intención de salirse la Convención Europea de Derechos Humanos.

Queremos poner nuestra parte en abrigar a los ciudadanos europeos que actualmente trabajan y viven en Escocia.

Nos gustaría contar con su opinión si usted es inmigrante europeo viviendo y trabajando en este país, y ofrecemos la posibilidad de traducir de su propio idioma y la publicación on-line.

En cuanto al voto a favor de la salida de Reino Unido de la Unión Europea:

¿Como ha cambiado su opinión del Reino Unido?
¿Ha cambiado su punto de vista en cuanto a la independencia de Escocia?
¿Cuales son sus temores con respecto lo que puede pasar como resultado de Brexit?
¿Esta a favor de que Escocia permanezca como miembro de la Unión Europea?
¿Qué consecuencias puede acarrear Brexit para sus amigos y familiares?

No suponemos ningún punto de vista de antemano, sino que queremos contar con un amplio abanico de opiniones.

Compartir su parecer al respecto con nosotros en no más de 800 palabras. Escribirnos a la siguiente dirección:
bellasletters@yahoo.co.uk

**

imagesŠkotija balsavo likti Europos Sąjungoje.

Škotija nubalsavo už Jungtinės Karalystės likimą Europos Sąjungoje: tik 38% rinkėjų pasirinko palikti ES, palyginus su 62% už išlikimą Europos Sąjungoje, ir visos 32 Škotijos savivaldybės balsavo pasilikti. Mes taip padarėme ir, nepaisant to, kad mums sakė, kad vienintelis būdas išlikti Europos Sąjungoje buvo nubalsuoti „ne“ nepriklausomybės referendume, mes dabar būsime ištraukti iš Europos Sąjungos prieš mūsų valią.

Buvęs vyriausybės kancleris Nigel‘as Lawson‘as teigia, kad „Breksitas leidžia mums padaryti Jungtinę Karalystę dinamiškiausia ir laisviausia šalimi visoje Europoje: vienu žodžiu, pabaigti tai, ką pradėjo Margaret Tečer“, o teisingumo ministrė Liz Truss patvirtino savo ketinimus panaikinti Europos Žmogaus teisių aktą.

Mes norime apginti teises ES piliečių, gyvenančių Škotijoje.

Mes norėtume išgirsti jūsų nuomonę, jeigu esate ES pilietis, gyvenantis ir dirbantis šioje šalyje ir mes siūlome publikuoti ir išversti jūsų tekstą iš jūsų gimtosios kalbos.

Kaip Breksito referendumo rezultatai pakeitė jūsų nuomonę apie Britaniją?
Kaip Breksito referendumo rezultatai pakeitė jūsų nuomonę apie Škotijos nepriklausomybę?
Dėl kokių potencialių Breksito rezultatų labiausiai nerimaujate?
Ar palaikytumėte Škotijos likimą ES dalimi?

Kokios yra Breksito pasekmės jums, jūsų draugams ir šeimai?

Mes nesitikime jokios specifinės nuomonės ar apie Škotijos nepriklausomybės, ar apie Europos Sąjungos narystės referendumus. Mes norime išgirsti nuomonių iš visų įmanomų požiūrio taškų. Per artėjančias kelias dienas mes publikuosime šitą atsišaukimą įvairiomis kalbomis, siekdami pasiekti kaip galima daugiau žmonių.

Išsakykite savo nuomonę mums tekstu iki 800 žodžių. Rašykite mums į bellasletters@yahoo.co.uk
#EU2

 

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  1. lorraine cleaver says:

    “We’d like to hear your views if you’re an EU migrant living and working in this country and we’re offering to publish and translate from your own language.”

    Here’s my views, and I am not any of the above but must a common or garden Scottish born Yes votes. I am disgusted that we voted to remain yoked to the EU for a political score. I will never vote YES now. I know many who feel the same. Deal with it.

    1. Neil Anderson says:

      You’re a bum. Or perhaps a troll. Or perhaps a troll’s bum.

      1. Neil Anderson says:

        And the phrase: “..but must a common or garden Scottish born Yes votes.” makes no sense at all. Can you explain what it means please?

        1. Valerie says:

          At some point, there will be a choice of Unions, EU or UK. Anyone that professes to support independence, but would vote to remain under Tory rule for the foreseeable, yoked to their massive debt, failing economy, xenophobic views, being sidelined and shunned by the rest of the world, whilst they continue to asset strip Scotland, needs to get a grip.

          Do some reading, learn what we gain from the EU, don’t repeat the Farage garbage about unelected or loss of sovereignty. It’s already been proven to be crap and Remainers down south would bite your hand off, for the chances we have.

          The Sun is setting on the Empire, our future lies elsewhere.

        2. david says:

          I think its a racist euphemism. Certainly thats my interpretation. Not civilised.

    2. Keith MacAllan says:

      Disengenuou post, seeking to mislead and muddy the waters!

    3. Crubag says:

      An indy2 will purely be about Scotland and the British union.

      According to the polls, a third of SNP voters voted to leave the European Union structures (obviously not to leave Europe).

      A second referendum will be needed before any application to rejoin.

      And by that time…? The EU lashup will be different again, thanks to our courage.

    4. Agatha Cat says:

      “..common or garden…”. That’s an unusual way for anyone to refer to their own nationality. It’s a possible way to refer to someone else’s, however.

    5. Piotr says:

      You are entitled to your view, though it was not sought.
      I do not share it.

      Where is the evidence that Scots voted to “remain” to settle a score?

      It sounds like you will vote NO to independence to settle a score.

      Would this be right?

  2. greatelephantcensus says:

    “Scotland voted in favour of the UK staying in the EU by 62% to 38% ”

    “Scotland” did no such thing. This is a lie.

    “Scotland” i.e. the Scots voted to Leave the EU.

    Only 67% i.e. 2/3rds of Scots eligible to vote managed to drag themselves to the polling station. (This is in the egalitarian engaged informed enlightened scales fallen from the eyes new democratic utopia of Scotland).

    The other 1/3 couldn’t be bothered – so they get the decision that others (across the UK) made on their behalf.

    40% of Scots eligible to vote, positively affirmed their desire to remain in the EU. less than half.

    60% of Scots eligible to vote voted to Leave the EU, or couldn’t be bothered to vote. So they take the decision others made – to Leave the EU.

    In Glasgow – the Yes City!!!!! full of engaged enlightened egalitarian europhile internationalists, enthused by the democratic revolution of 2014 – turnout was 52%!

    “Scotland” i.e. the Scots voted to Leave the EU.

    And that’s what you are doing.

    Not happy? tough.

    It’s not the Tories fault. Or the Red Tories fault. Or Westminster’s fault. Or England’s fault. Or ‘Neoliberalisms’ fault.

    It is SCOTLAND’S fault that Scotland i.e. the Scots are leaving the EU.

    Concerned about the future of citizens from other EU states living in Scotland?

    You should apologise to them – because you let them down, with your complacency.

    1. Neil Anderson says:

      What’s the figures on percentage of Tory votes in the last General Election again? And turn-out?

      1. Neil Anderson says:

        And the percentage of those who didn’t bother to turn out?

        1. Keith MacAllan says:

          Ignore him he’s a clown!

    2. Disgruntled European says:

      greatelephant:

      Contrary to what you state, abstention is always considered an endorsement of the status quo, at any election, anywhere it takes place. You can’t count the abstainers as effectively leave voters, no political scientist would give any credence to such a prejudice…

    3. Haideng says:

      This is a very good point. More English per capita voted to remain in the EU than in Scotland based on turnout. Stats are annoying when they don’t fit your agenda. Also, it begs the question, how will all those abstainers/ Brexit and Indy Yes supporters now deal with the SNP?

  3. Crubag says:

    “We”? Is that the royal we? Some of us voted No, but a million Scots (native and incomer) voted Yes!

    And that was in the face of a Fear campaign similar to that which won in 2014.

    There was no-one to make a positive case for the union. Even the eurocrats want to make it tough on us to stop anyone else leaving.

    But know there is an exit option we will see a more flexible Europe develop, I think. Or a tighter one under German control.

  4. Independent England says:

    Well England voted to leave the EU and there are more English than Scottish so if Scotland doesn’t like it then Scotland should stop whining and vote for independence. England or the EU. It’s time to choose!

  5. bringiton says:

    Freedom of movement of people is THE core value of the EU and underpins the whole concept of a European Union.
    Despite what England’s Tories think,the single market is there to facilitate that movement and bring social cohesion,and is not an end in itself.
    That is why,there will be no compromise with England as far as it’s immigration policies are concerned and the Westminster minister responsible for Brexit knows that only too well,even if his master doesn’t (or pretends not to).
    Loss of trade with England will have some impact on the economy of the EU but not sufficient to derail the project as some would wish.
    Our independence referendum was in part,based on retaining full contact with our fellow European nations,(Spain and England excepted who didn’t want us as equal partners) but as we now see,English nationalism is based entirely on xenophobia and the rejection of shared sovereignty.
    England does not belong in any union until it rids itself of it’s historical baggage and practices.

    1. Crubag says:

      We’ll have to wait and see what the BREXIT negotiations bring (hence the Sturgeon climbdown on indy2) but if it was a “hard BREXIT” as you suggest, that would have implications for any future Scottish application to the EU – i.e. a hard border with England (and Northern Ireland).

      Until we see where the pieces land, we won’t know what we’re working with.

      1. Valerie says:

        Sturgeon has climbed down on Indyref2? That’s proper news, given she announced that draft legislation is being prepared for it, only 2 days ago.

        How come they have given assurances there will be no hard Border in N Ireland, but there will be one between Scotland and England, if we are independent? You don’t see that as contradictory?

        Sturgeon has repeatedly said she does not want a hard Border, so it would be left to the English to build a Border.

        They can maybe get an extension to the contract building the great wall of Calais.

        1. bringiton says:

          They could also employ Trump.
          I hear that he may be getting into the construction business in a big way!

        2. Thrawn says:

          The NI issue is particular in that the UK has a treaty agreement mandating an open border…however even that will come under strain in a hard brexit situation

          Because in a hard Brexit the UK may be putting tariffs on european goods (and vice versa) which would be meaningless if you could just drive across and open border and collect them. Similiarly the UK will want to control immigration…again impossible if people can just fly in to Dublin or Edinburgh and drive across unchallenged. And by the way it doesn’t matter who “builds” the border…the effect will be the same.

    2. Haideng says:

      Again this simply isn’t true, many EU countries have put quotas and opt outs on newly entered EU States (hence the reason why so many Poles and Baltics totally bypassed Germany, France, Denmark and Holland on their way to the UK (Berlin is much closer to Gdansk than Manchester) – because the UK was one of the few fully open doors (New Labour policy) predominantly the SE of England and London where the bankers need cleaners and hospitals need nurses etc. I personally, being middle class and liberal think all this diversity is great, but if I was on the end of what is known as ‘Social dumping’ the use of legal cheap labour to maintain low wages for the poorest whilst creating a transient ‘worker class’ most of whom will leave one day, I would probably object. As many in both England, Wales and Scotland did. Dressing it up as blind xenophobia is to miss the point entirely, brazenly and irresponsible politiking.

    3. Haideng says:

      So here’s the thing. Perhaps it’s time to step back from the hyperbole and crass manipulation of identity for other political purposes and power (nationalism plus ca change) and address the wider issue that affects everyone – migrants and non migrants. Perhaps a more responsible approach than say the fairly tasteless manipulation of identity politics. TBH this article is pretty contemptible; the use of EU citizens in Scotland as pawns in another game. I doubt the crocodile tears here on Bella and especially in the SNP are convincing many EU citizens who have been resident in Scotland for some time are especially fooled by this nonsense. They pretty much know that as soon as Scotland becomes independent or has control over immigration there will be the same restrictions and negativity; the same story all economic immigrants face will be the order of the day due to political expediency as it is everywhere else pretty much in the world – including many of the EU countries heavily represented. So lets look at the real problem – inequality.

      Economic Rationale:

      1)The free movement of people is a central tenet of free market/ liberal economics – along with the free movement of capital, goods and services – hence the logic that if everything is harmonised then the market works better (EU) + (UK) but on different levels of market functioning – UK has a huge internal transient population – most heading south east. The notion (if you’re a neo lib) is that this makes everyone better off as labour goes where it is needed balancing the market out. But clearly this hasn’t happened.

      2) What actually happens (as we have seen over the last 2 decades, in the EU and elsewhere – other large single markets) is that labour follows capital and then capital follows labour and so on. Essentially it a self reinforcing process of constant shifts so what you end up with is both constantly shifting capital (Nissan are now offski etc) and a constantly shifting labour force – Glasgow and the NE of England have seen the largest decrease in population (the poorest areas) and the only people who really win are those sitting where ever they like and tun the show from say Monaco or the Caymen Islands – essentially the rich and stateless. For most people it results in the over concentration of labour in certain parts, that puts pressure on both wages (kept low) while forcing up prices and stretching public services and social pressures due to rapidly changing environments. This is why more cohesive social democratic Denmark, Sweden are (and actually always have been) fiercely anti immigration in reality compared to Boris Johnson’s London/ UK.

      Case Study: Barking and Dagenham

      Has experienced the highest inward immigration than anywhere else in Northern Europe with 13.4% population increase at the 2011 census. 30% increase in under 19 years old, especially the 0 -4 age range putting huge pressure on schools and services added to the fact that English is not often not first language and many are single parents in an area of acute housing shortage.

      The white British population since 2001 has shrunk from 80% to 49% – that’s a ratio of approx a 45 – 50% decline vis a vis immigration (the Scottish average is 0.5% decrease vis a vis 0.2%) – the highest increase in residency are EU migrants and African 12% and 15% respectively.

      It doesn’t take a genius to see that this rapidity of change isn’t going to cause problems and have a knock on effect of fear in other working class areas who feel they are next – that fear then manipulated by political cynics.

      Other parts of the world – US (see the labour exchange between Mexico), China (see the hundreds of millions of non civic-citizen ‘peasant’ tmeporarily residents in cities) and India (ditto) and the UAE (huge migrant population servicing the wealthy with very few rights) Africa (towards South Africa and Nigeria/ Luanda) all over the world hundreds of millions of transient migrant workers with differing legal rights in different provinces follow development/ production/ capital investment and only returning home to their villages once a year for a few days 9including EU migrants.

      Now I don’t know what the answer is – as there are benefits of free movement – if it is balanced and not concentrated and states have the power to match wages with prices rises, maintain equality – but it does strike me as utterly disingenuous that people like Mike Small berate neo-liberalism then also are the biggest cheerleaders for one of it’s major and most damaging and self reinforcing components – The city of London would grind to a halt if all the EU migrants left tomorrow and they would be forced to massively increase wages to compensate for the loss and return to functioning again.

      Now rather than go boo hiss look at the xenephobic English and lets use the poor old Poles as cog in our wheel – oh aren’t they in Sunderland soooooo different to us superior Scots an hour up the road – why don’t the Scottish government and nationalists address the real very complex issue instead.

      After all the motivation for many in the poorer parts of Glasgow and Dundee to vote for Independence was not anti- Englishness (that’s reserved to the middle class nats) but poverty and losing the globalisation game. in the same way the white British guy on the dole in Hartlepool or Kent voted to leave the EU. It is contemptible to blame either immigrants (where ever they are from) or the local population for something that neither have any control over.

      Does it help anyone if a Polish or Nigerian doctor with a Phd drives a bus in Fife or Southampton?

      1. To be honest Haideng the invitation was to EU migrants living in Scotland affected by the chaos of Brexit, rather than your good self. Maybe you didn’t read the small print?

        1. Frank says:

          Article 4 of fourth protocol ECHR prohibits the mass expulsion of aliens so I presume EU migrants have nothing to worry about if they want to remain in Scotland when we leave the EU.

          1. bringiton says:

            Only the stated intention of England’s Tory government to repeal the EHCR act following Brexit.
            Nothing much to worry about!

          2. Freddie M says:

            Frank actually makes a good point. Why is Bella scaremongering. EU citizens living in the UK at the time of Brexit will retain residency and working rights. Exactly the same as English born in Scotland for independence.

            This is pure politics.

        2. Haideng says:

          Mike it’s perfectly clear what the motivation behind the invitation is and it has nothing to do with caring what EU citizens in Scotland think. It’s about reinforcing the difference between Scotland and the England – creating a false division to further one agenda Scottish Nationalism.

          Pick on the English fine, I’m sure they can stick up for themselves, but don’t use others for crass politiking.

      2. Hi ‘Haideng’ – just took time-out to read some of the heartfelt, sad and angry responses we are receiving from EU citizens threatened by Brexit and responding to our call-out to read your moronic comment. I’m not sure how you can have the gall to accuse us of narrow nationalism in the aftermath of Brexit and in the wake of the policies and social problems evoked by it, but I sense that you’re unmoved by changing realities.

        I hope you get the same time to read the stream of first-hand accounts we’ll be publishing over the next week.

        1. Haideng says:

          Right so if it doesn’t fit your agenda then I should shut up? Feel free to actually address the essence of my post rather than crassly deflecting and using the predicament of others to virtue signal. Answer the point about migration reinforcing neoliberlaism and inequality globally?

          Would be genuinely interested.

          1. I didn’t tell you to shut up – I told you to listen.

            These are quite different concepts. I suggest you explore the difference.

            It’s not my voice that I’m suggesting you listen to. It’s the voice of thousands of people affected by this farce. You may discount their voices, their experiences, or the catalogued accounts of a spike in racism across the country if you like, just be sure it’s not my voice you’re discounting.

      3. Graeme Purves says:

        The bottom-feeders from ‘The Hootsmon’ comment strings appear to have exhausted their habitat.

  6. Danny says:

    Over the last few years, democracy to more and more people seems only to be a good thing when the vote goes the way they would like.
    I voted Yes in the Scottish Referendum, but the majority voted No. That’s democracy. This was the decision of Scotland to remain part of the Union and to go along with the way its voting systems work. So when the UK voted to leave the EU, this means the UK as a whole will leave the EU.
    If and when we become Independent, Scotland can alone make these decisions. But while we remain in the UK, we must respect the majority of our own voters (the 55%) to carry on as part of the UK.
    Some in the SNP are sounding increasingly like bad losers, and wasting their time trying to overturn democratic decisions rather than making Scotland a fairer country.

    1. Valerie says:

      You must have missed Sturgeon saying that she respects May has a mandate to take England out of the EU, but SNP have a mandate to protect Scotland’s economy and place in the EU, by dint of the fact, 62% voted to Remain.

      Prior to the EU referendum, Sturgeon called for a 4 nation lock on the vote, Cameron of course refused. The SG are not trying to overturn a vote, but if 32 council areas vote to Remain, and you are SNP, then you listen to that, and protect the country’s position.

      The UK is headed into 15 years of chaos and decline. It might start to climb out the toilet after that.

      That’s what people in Scotland could foresee, and voted accordingly, to keep their rights as EU citizens.

      I’d like to hear someone out forward what they see as the benefits of remaining in this Union.

      1. Frank says:

        Do you understand what the UNITED in UK means. Do you also understand the limitations of a devolved government/assembly, the constitution is a reserved matter – reserved to Westminster, that is and so the Scottish government has no say in constitutional matters. As for the “Britain we voted to stay in no longer existing” well it appears to me that the SNP I voted for all my life no longer exist either.

      2. Danny says:

        62% have voted to remain, therefore we should remain in the EU. But what about the 55% that voted to remain in the UK? This is my point. You seem to want to ignore the fact that we can’t pick and choose when it comes to Democracy.

      3. Doubting Thomas says:

        65 per cent of our exports go to the rest of the U.K.!
        A fraction of them go to the EU.
        The assumption that will continue if Indy ever came about us based on what?
        The farm products sent south would be replaced by home grown as tariffs would apply.
        The haggi mountain would grow exponentially to the point Wee Krankie would be telling us that our farming output needs to be reduced.
        We have very limited deep water port capacity to import export and 80 per cent of our road traffic to facilitate both comes via England.
        Another opportunity for tariffs which start in the EU and be increased because we have to travel via England.

    2. Keith MacAllan says:

      I bet a hundred quid you voted NO!

      Anyone who who does not seek to further their main politcal aims, e.g using the brexit vote to further the independence cause, I suspect them to be a unionist seeking to misinform and ruin genuine dialogue.

      Are there not Tory blogs you can use and mix with like minded people?

      You appear to be using three ailing on this one topic, pathetic.

      1. Danny says:

        It’s easy to make a bet when you’ll never have to pay out. But believe me I voted Yes, and would again.
        Maybe you also think that Jim Sillars is a Tory?

    3. Rodric Selbie says:

      No voters are so see through, and you are one of them…

  7. Independent England says:

    Isn’t it time that the Scottish stopped discussing and actually did something. We English did!

    1. EU citizen in UK says:

      You are comparing Scottish and EU referendums as if they were of the same calibre. Their structures might be similar, not their contents or implications. The political consequences of Brexit are very different from the views the English or the British might have about these consequences. It is slightly naïve also to believe that the views of the society will have a formative impact on any of the negotiations that lie ahead for Scotland or UK. It’s debatable if they should.

  8. Thrawn says:

    Look either the Brexit will take the form of membership of European single market which will have to include free movement of people for Europe to accept our joining it, meaning the actual impact on Scotland and the immigrants you so helpfully/patronisingly want to stand up for would be negligible…

    OR…Brexit will take the form of a full withdrawal meaning Scottish independence would imply trade tariffs between ourselves and by far our biggest trading partner as well as a hard land border. I’m far from convinced those immigrants (and many Scots) would want to stay around for that

  9. Steven Milne says:

    3 months after the Brexit vote and UK economy has not been adversely affected.

    No major employer has indicated it will relocate it’s HQ to the continent, no need for an emergency budget, interest rates have been cut, FTSE has gone up, trade deals in the offing with USA, China & Australia.

    The majority of Remainians have accepted the result and are getting down to doing the right thing for themselves, their families and the economy in general viz. getting up early in the morning to work hard rather than whingeing and grievance mongering.

    1. Valerie says:

      That’s simply not true. Obama said UK deal is not his country’s priority, they want to do a deal with the biggest market in the world – the EU. China are hacked off about May backtracking on Hinckley, and Australia said a deal after we leave the EU.

      The London School of Economics have several economists who give updates. Their view, is that the first solid figures will be around Xmas, when there is a range of indicators.

      The City London is reporting staff cuts, as finance companies decide if they stay or not.

      The Japanese are extremely unhappy, and they a count for 140k jobs in their car plants. They have indicated Brexit should be as soft as possible. They have plants in EU, where they will move investment etc.

      That’s just this week.

    2. Archie Hamilton says:

      “3 months after the Brexit vote and UK economy has not been adversely affected.”

      Yet.

      Too many people are either congratulating themselves or consoling themselves in the manner above when in fact the real impact has not yet been felt – whether that turns out to be good, bad or indifferent.

      It will be some time yet before any realistic assessment can be made as to the overall effects.

      But for now those concerned can keep up their pretence that all is well in the Great Britain they’ve been brought up to believe exists.

      1. Steven Milne says:

        The immigration statistics suggests that Great Britain is a far better place to live than socialist utopias like Greece, Venezuela and North Korea.

        1. Pilrig says:

          It was an even better place to live before the Old Boy mob got in.

        2. Doubting Thomas says:

          Steven
          You should know by now that statistics and economic reporting are considered on here by the Natsies as damn lies! Lol!!
          Facts don’t mean a thing to them.
          I think things are only going to become more fraught this coming month as nothing progresses on Brexit and the financial half year reports start to come through.
          The FTSE at a stable high with improving exports due to the weaker pound.
          There is growing impatience that Wee Nicola is bottling it in front of their very eyes.
          The hard left who jumped over to the SNP are starting to realise she will not commit due to the fear of losing and there are already indications they will move their support over to the Greens and back to other left wing groups.
          The damage caused by failed and flawed policy decisions on policing, justice,local authority finance and the named person fiasco is preventing people who might have been open to moving from no to yes from doing so.
          Worse still as well as the hard left dissatisfaction the 29 per cent within who want to leave the EU is made up largely of people involved in farming and fishing in communities which have been hit hard over the years by EU policy and in particular by SNP failure to correct this.
          These are and have been core SNP supporters who see the balance of power within their party surging left and whose views are being sidelined as the central belt and more so the west of Scotland socialist economic requirement is pandered to.
          She can’t balance the books whilst doing this hence EU membership will not be possible.
          Just to maintain the deficit at current levels she relies on the UK.
          This is going nowhere and the only people who will suffer as a result of her broken dream will be us.

  10. Steven Milne says:

    Doubting Thomas

    One wonders how long the alliance between genuine Scottish Nationalists and the motley crew of extreme socialists, Irish republicans, hippies and conspiracy theorists who voted Yes in 2014 can be maintained?

    They style themselves as a progressive alliance but all that unites them is a hatred of the British state and/or the free market economy.

    1. I think I’ll have that put on my business card, thank you

      1. Thrawn says:

        “Business Card”…who still uses business cards?…lol…very 20th century reference there im afraid. I think you mean “LinkedIn profile”

  11. john young says:

    For all those that vote no for independence,we are not going to separate from the British Isles and float of into the north Atlantic we are not going to put up a wall between us an England we will continue to trade with England and all the other diddy bits,all we are going to do is run our own affairs,so what is wrong with that?.

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