For a Scottish Republic
Just when you think nothing will ever change, and the dark nights and the short days of Midwinter encourage you to despair, a glimmer of light beckons. Winter is here. Spring is coming.
A poll by Norstat, (formerly Panelbase) asked this week: If Scottish independence meant that Scotland would be a republic – meaning the King would no longer be the head of state, so Scotland’s governance would be fully democratic and not a monarchy – how would you vote if there were an independence referendum tomorrow?
The idea of a Scottish Republic moves independence support from 54% to 59%.
The poll raises a hundred questions. The first of which, is this real? Does this stand up? Is this an outlier? We’ll see, I doubt it.
What I think we are seeing is a generational shift without memory of the Second World War, it has a memory of the catastrophic behaviour of the Windsor (very) extended family, and more recently the disgraceful handling of Prince Andrew and Prince Harry. What having a Royal family means is not unclear to see, it is very clear to see. The idea of a commitment to Royalism has collapsed before our eyes just as the idea of Britishness has. They are conjoined and doomed twins.
This poll, if it stands up, changes the game completely. The notion that we should construct a softly-softly case for independence is shattered. The idea that we should construct a case on the basis of ‘not frightening the horses’ is gone. The horses, in terms of Britain and the Union have bolted. They’ve gone. The idea of replaying the 2014 case for independence has gone too.
Many (most) of the players of 2014 have left the stage: Queen Elizabeth, Alex Salmond, George Osbourne, David Cameron, Nicola Sturgeon, and many more.
We are in a completely new landscape and this new ground doesn’t have faith in the previously ‘unifying’ idea of a British monarchy. This might seem like a constitutional sideline, an interesting but irrelevant bit of detail but it is far bigger than that. Without the endless bunting propaganda of coronations, births, deaths, marriages and social media distortions Britain is reduced to its harsh realities: destitution, food banks and grotesque inequality.
This is a challenge to the independence parties and movement. How do you create a movement that responds to this?
The data from the polling suggests that, as Believe in Scotland lays out:
“Once again, a republic garners more support for independence in every age group with the oldest (and most pro-union) males and females aged 55+ jumping 2% and 3% respectively. The biggest increases in the Males 35-54 increasing 10% and Females 35-54 increasing 9%.
Middle class support for independence jumps 3% and working class support jumps 6%. Remain voters increase 5% and even those that voted to leave the EU increase 2%. Let’s spell it out – an independent Scotland being a republic not only takes independence support from 54% to 59%, it increases support for independence in every age group, gender, political party support, social class and place of birth category.”
The cynic, or the skeptic, or the realist, would say, “So what?” We don’t have a routemap to independence, the SNP have been useless, the British state have the whiphand”. All is despair, Branchform and Reform UK.
I mean, that’s understandable but also too much, or too little.
The fact is that events march on and circumstances and people change. Alex Salmond, despite his recent canonisation, was both brilliant and problematic. He was, and Alba’s experience reinforces this, a Marmite figure. This polling amplifies and accelerates the idea that a new case for independence would be completely different in nature and tone. It suggests that to create a case for a new Scottish democracy it would be far more attractive to frame it as a real change rather than a partial, apologetic change. Elections across the world suggest that people are dissatisfied with continuity and status quo and are yearning for rupture and deep change. This impulse is relentlessly exploited by the populist right, but it mines a deep seam of anger and dissattisfaction.
We know this from the experience of 2014 where the people were motivated by the glimpse of actual change. So what would this look like?
An independent Scotland brought into being on the basis of the vision of being a Republic is a very different thing than what was proposed in 2014. It would be first of all a generational rupture, a visceral and intellectual rejection of the whole concept of the Union, and both a far more attractive idea to young and future Scotland, and a far bigger threat to the British establishment. The forces that will oppose this will be scared and angry and would undoubtedly revoke and regurgitate a version of Project Fear.
I think that would fail badly. Not only have the demographics of Scotland changed dramatically in the last decade, and we don’t have to be too ghoulish to know what this means, but the idea of the monarchy has effectively collapsed. Project Fear 2 won’t work.
Britain is a severely diminished reality and concept in 2024. It won’t fly.
To be fair, Labour had a whole series of chances. The much flagged and flaunted blueprint for constitutional change mapped out by Gordon Brown came to nothing at all, the social change promised by the new Labour government also came to nothing at all, other than a dispiriting Blairism re-warmed and a litany of promises betrayed. They had their chance to show that Britain was a reformable, mobile, dynamic place. It isn’t. It’s a stagnant broken backwater, even more in the post-Brexit miasma, a landscape haunted by the ghouls of Prince Andrew, Kemi Badenoch, Nigel Farage and their entourage of strange celebrants.
The irony is we didn’t break Britain, we are walking into the broken Britain destroyed by Unionists, Royalists, and people who scavenged on the entrails of a sold-off, privatised commodity. The irony is that all sorts of people: May, Cameron, Sunak, Brown, Starmer could all have done more – something – to recreate and nurture a sense of Britain and Britishness. They couldn’t, or didn’t, partly out of a smug sense of entitlement and condescension – the idea that the constitutional and ‘those Bloody Scots’ – had been put to bed and shut up permanently – but also just out of a complete cluelessness about what to do next. I mean, what is Britain anymore? They, like you and me, have no idea. They have no idea how to construct or portray a modern Britain other than some pathetic shouting about ‘Britannia Unleashed’ and other strange post-imperial rants.
So what would a Scottish Republic look like and what would its consequences be?
Despite a lineage that goes through Maclean and Connolly and Burns, a Scottish Republic would be less about historical heroes and more about facing the future. If these polling figures are to be believed it propels the case for independence into new terrain. A generation of people and more have grown up with the spectacle of royalty as celebrities, and with the subsequent impermanence of Love Island. Harry and Megan upped and left because they were trapped in a racist dysfunctional family. Of all the open goals for Britain to re-present itself as a salvageable entity, open to reform and modernisation, this was it.
Just as Starmer’s new Labour government was presented as an opportunity to right the wrongs of the long years of Tory rule, these were Britain’s last hopes to make the case for itself, and it failed. Gordon Brown’s blueprint for constitutional reforms – that had been talked up for years – were quietly shelved and this week Labour stuffed the House of Lords with ridiculous peerages, the chumocracy was cranked up again and Peter Mandelson was announced as our American envoy.
A Scottish Republic would do three things at once.
First, it would re-cast Scotland and the independence movement into a new light. It would cast off the shroud of deference and the couthy Balmoralism of twee nationalism. Second, it would do what was almost feared most, it would create the threat of a good example to the rest of the UK. Third, it would create that which is intolerable to the Union – it would articulate difference. If devolution was all about continuity and proving the malleability of the Union to change, declaring the goal to be a Republic fundamentally changes everything. This would be brilliant and intolerable.
As Morrissey pointed out prematurely The Queen is Dead, and with her died a generation-load of good wishes and constitutional karma. In 2014 the Queen relinquished her supposed neutrality and whispered political statements that David Cameron seized on with glee. Now, the Union in defiance of a move to a Republican stance would have to appeal to King Charles and Queen Camilla for such soundbites, and that is not the same thing at all.
Last year’s coronation allowed The Mail to have a go at this, suggesting that this was somehow, the ‘People’s Coronation’, and, even more strangely, this would allow us ALL to swear allegiance. We did not.
This exercise in fealty failed miserably. As Tom Nairn put it: “…the stage hypnotists and sullen audience were compelled to go through their motions – the reproduction of a traditional Britain, crowned by Monarchy and attired in the feudality of Lordship, the reliquaries of caste and imperium, a domain of narrative cast in the familiar immemorial tones of stable repetition. They felt obliged to go on living as if Britain had not died, with troupes of hypnotists encouraging viewers in their suspension of disbelief…”
It is possible, I suppose, that the remaining constituent parts of the UK would remain a monarchy, but it would be historically absurd and an extreme form of exceptionalism. Perhaps, given the mood, a Scottish Republic would create an English backlash, cleaving to the Crown and tradition in a boosted new form of nationalism. It could however go the other way, and draw on and encourage the latent progressive forces of republicanism. This could be the Roundheads and Cavaliers Culture War.
But a Republic would have other consequences as it would mean the break-up of the remnants of feudal order and landed power that is the connective tissue of huge estates with the highlands as a symbolic and actual playground for the aristocracy. That would be broken up and – what would really terrify and motivate the forces that benefit from the established order – would be England finally alone.
Nairn again. Writing in Pariah (Verso) he suggests: “An explanation is that when many English intellectuals and politicos are forced to think about ‘Britain’ and England together they do go ‘mad’. This is not because they are those ‘whom the gods wish to destroy’ as Enoch Powell once darkly hinted. Rather, it is as if the ‘one people/race’ dilemma triggers the equivalent of a fit, or spasm, from which they find themselves momentarily unable to escape. The low semantic barrier between ‘British’ (dead but Great) and ‘English (desirable yet intolerable) sets up something like a computer loop. A form of Automatic Writing takes over. Normal debates degenerate into séances, during which ancestral spirit-guides appear and fight it out in the respective craniums, relaying encrypted messages alternately from Beowulf (or J.R.R. Tolkien), Edmund Burke and the speeches of Churchill. These are usually mixed-up with protestations of antiracism, outreach affidavits and platitudinous conclusions like Scruton’s. Studying these we can see that for the subjects of ‘England’ and ‘Britain’ have become like Siamese Twins. There can be no question of sacrificing the one to save the other. What the Union of Britannic watchdogs demands is that at all costs both must be kept alive.”
So, a Republic would be both enticing and motivating for a whole generation of Scots that could push independence into the sort of support that was seen for devolution a quarter of a century ago, and send Unionist forces into apoplexy.
If this was to transpire then it becomes irresistible. Numbers bubbling along at 45% can be rubbished, contained and rejected. Numbers bubbling along at 65% cannot. Or they can but the stakes become considerably higher.
So how might this be moved forward?
If conservative forces within the SNP might continue to resist a move to an explicitly Republican position, others with a glance at the polling would certainly not. A likely way to change course would be to declare a body to explore the constitution of an independent Scotland and have a modern republic at its centre. Suddenly, many who were uninterested by the previous outline of a future Scotland, still basically attached to key pillars of British statehood, would be interested and motivated. What we’ve learned, and this shouldn’t have been so difficult to understand, is that when you offer people real change, they are motivated by it, and greatly so.
People sense and know there are things that are fundamentally wrong about our society and our politics. This is why the bland alternatives of Keir Starmer and Kamala Harris have suffered so badly in the court of public opinion. Yes Starmer was elected, but his fall from grace is so spectacular (and so self-inflicted) as to be the last gasp of the Union.
Given the way Scotland has been treated since the Brexit debacle, and given the extraordinary governments of May, Johnson, Truss and Sunak, it is extraordinary that support for Scottish independence isn’t far higher. Given the social conditions we have all witnessed, and as capitalism cracks and burns under its own far-advanced meta-crises, is it really so surprising that people want real change? Given the decades of farcical behaviour of members of the royal family, what is surprising is that idea of republicanism haven’t come forward much earlier. But the reality is that monarchism and deference just aren’t hard-wired into the Scottish psyche in the same way as they are in English popular culture. This presents a real problem and a real opportunity. It is one we should grasp with both hands.
Wonder what the result would have been if the question was ‘do you want King Charlie3 or Donald Trump?’, as if anyone cares apart from a handful of people who are dissatisfied with anything and everything. Realistically, if Scotland was independent of Westminster, I can’t really see anyone bothering to hold a referendum on the monarchy.
Alternatively, Charles III or Míchael D. O’Higgins.
Excellent, Mike. Great analysis and very elegant prose.
lol, aye, the careful inclusion of the word ‘pub’ within ‘re-pub-lic’ is what swung it methinks, I am already wondering after paragraph one how this is gona work since so much of the supposed aura that surrounds the royals is dependant upon their supposed ties & links to the great wilderness of rural & Highland Scotland, a mythos that also finds expression in mainstream culture i.e., jimmy bond returning to his Heilan roots in the ridiculous yet nevertheless reasonably entertaining ‘Skyfall’ . Back in the real world, how is this actually gona pan out, there is a longstanding & I have to say pretty convincing argument found in the works of James Hunter for one which warns against Highland folk putting all that much faith in directives emerging from Lowland Scotland, the feeling being that Lowlanders actually hate Highlanders even more than the English hate Highlanders. My feeling is that so long as there are folk willing to research & remind anyone curious enough as to the long bitter & twisted history of chaos that has plagued this set of islands the more we shall remain disunited in almost every respect other than keeping up that wonderful tradition of bickering amongst wursels & no taking ony poser/egomaniac daft enough to lowp on stage all that seriously.
“….the feeling being that Lowlanders actually hate Highlanders even more than the English hate Highlanders. ”
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I have met VERY many English people BUT NOT ONE who has expressed hatred of Highlanders.
I cannot say the same for Lowlanders where mì-rùn mòr Nan Gall is stark. Just check BTL comments in any Scottish newspaper that publishes a story about Gaelic.
In my experience it would be less inaccurate to say: “….the feeling being that Lowlanders actually hate Highlanders even more than Lowlanders hate the English. ”
You really think these myths from ‘British’ Scottish history have anything to offer current issues ? They labeled us congenitally divided (on racial Saxon/Celt lines among others) and as incapable of governing ourselves. Who are these ‘Lowlanders’ and ‘Highlanders’ btw ? Where’s the boundary. What’s the difference between a ‘Highland’ eviction and a ‘Lowland eviction’ ? Do you hate ‘Lowlanders’ ? Fair question considering your comments.
“You really think these myths from ‘British’ Scottish history have anything to offer current issues ?”
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I have no idea what that question means. Are you commenting on a different post from mine?
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“Where’s the boundary.”
Hunter, quoted by Mark above, would have known the boundary was cultural and linguistic – although he himself often tried to blur it .
The clue is in the Gaelic aperçu of Alasdair mac Mhaighstir Alasdair (1698- 1770). It means “the great ill-will of the Lowlander”
Alasdair mac Mhaighstir Alasdair was writing in the 18th Century when such prejudices were current, and furthered particular cultural and economic agendas not unconnected with the Union and the interests of the Hanovarian government.
‘Lowlanders’ are anyone who lives in the Lowlands [of Scotland]. ‘Highlanders’ are anyone who lives in the Highlands [of Scotland]. The boundary lies along the major fault line that traverses Scotland from Arran and Helensburgh on the west coast to Stonehaven in the east.
241223
THANK you.
I’m sure James Hunter knows that bit of primary school Scottish geography. But that is not what he was talking about.
What was James Hunter talking about, then? Some nonsense about ethnicity or something?
241223
“What was James Hunter talking about, then? Some nonsense about ethnicity or something?”
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Au contraire.
So keen as he to distance himself from that kind of thing that he famously misrepresented a Gaelic poet who he thought, wrongly, was ploughing that furrow. In fairness, Hunter is neither Gael nor xenophobe.
I suggest you read or re-read the psssage in Mark’s post above:
“…have to say pretty convincing argument found in the works of James Hunter for one which warns against Highland folk putting all that much faith in directives emerging from Lowland Scotland….”
hmm, not so sure about that, ye get plenty folk from way down south east England way ready to exploit the teuchters buy up their huises & rent as holiday homes tae profit themselves at expense to pretty much everybody else in the community, I think having a parliament in Edinburgh has probably helped the central belt but what has it done for us up here in the back ae beyond? Either we get a Highland parliament also or we stick with a situation where we suffer the presence of NATO & all that that involves whilst the hoi polloi carry on their ego driven wee career objectives in cities further South until finally being caught out & locked in the closet until the public has been given time to forget about them whereupon they are wheeled back out as though brand new & given airtime to spout much the same empty rhetoric they were well known for last time they received the opportunity to make their heavily compromised views known.
A Balkanised Scotland ? Okay-dokay.
I have to say, all things being equal, and all things considered, that sounds like a load of codswallop.
That’s for Cynicus, before Mark starts on me again.
Weather has finally broke so I’m away for a walk, therefore you’re safe enough for a while at least, although I have to say I wasn’t aware I was starting on anyone, apologies if in the bluntness of internet speak it seemed that I was. I did notice my spelling has become pretty atrocious so shall endeavour to examine comments more carefully prior to posting. Bye for now 🙂
It is.
Graeme Purves
“Alasdair mac Mhaighstir Alasdair was writing in the 18th Century when such prejudices were current….”
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They certainly were.
They had a currency also at least two centuries before, reaching a crescendo during the reign of Slabbetin’ Jamie, especially after he inherited the English throne in 1603.
And they have currency STILL. If you doubt this just check out comments below the line in any Scottish newspaper that features a story on the Gaelic language.
Graeme Purves
“Alasdair mac Mhaighstir Alasdair was writing in the 18th Century when such prejudices were current….”
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They certainly were.
They had a currency also at least two centuries before, reaching a crescendo during the reign of Slabbetin’ Jamie, especially after he inherited the English throne in 1603.
And they have currency STILL. If you doubt this just check out comments below the line in any Scottish newspaper that features a story on the Gaelic language.
Graeme Purves
24th December 2024 at 5:26 pm
Cynicus
I am tickled that rather than providing contemporary evidence of the hatred of Lowlanders for Highlanders, you retreat even further into history, to the time of Jamie the Saxt!
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That is part of a continuum looking back from the time of Alasdair mac Mhaighstir Alasdair. If you had read the rest of my post it looks forward to last month, next month.
Have a squint at BTL comments next time a piece about Gaelic appears in The Hootsmon or The Herald. I am astonished that you seem ignorant of this.
Happy Christmas.!
Derek Thomson
You had a very distinguished, professorial namesake at Glasgow University who would have disagreed with you. Mind you, he knew what he was talking about.
Oh – he was also a noted Gaelic poet – Ruairidh MacThomais.
Cynicus
I am tickled that rather than providing contemporary evidence of the hatred of Lowlanders for Highlanders, you retreat even further into history, to the time of Jamie the Saxt! 🙂
Unlike your good self.
thank you for your well argued & detailed response
That wasn’t aimed at you either.
That claim might have had a grain of truth to it in the 18th and 19th centuries when Enlightenment ‘intellectuals’ were peddling absurd theories about the ethnic superiority of the Anglo-Saxon over the Celtic peoples and the ‘The Scotsman’ was pursuing a venomously anti-Highland agenda in its columns, but it won’t wash today. Very many Lowlanders are at least partly of Highland descent, and/or have strong Highland family connections. As William McIlvanney reminded us, the Scots are a mongrel nation and the Lowland/Highland mix is an important part of that. In quite a long life, I have never met a contemporary Lowlander who hates Highlanders. I have met a small number of Lowland AND Highland Scots who claim to hate the English, but I have regarded their claims with a degree of scepticism. It has generally struck me as a rhetorical or theatrical pose.
hmm, I think your view of a united Scotland belongs to an alternative reality to the one in which I exist, I also think anyone who thinks the parliament in Edinburgh is all that concerned with what goes on in remote rural areas with low population density & therefore fewer votes to be had is either delusional or a bare faced liar which would put you in gude company with the holyrood mob right enuff
The claim by Cynicus is that Lowlanders hating Highlanders is still a thing. I remain sceptical, as I have never encountered it as a contemporary phenomenon. Cynicus made no reference to the failings of the Scottish Parliament in relation to rural areas. I am myself very critical of the Parliament’s neglect of Scotland beyond the Central Belt. I made no claim about Scottish unity. You appear to be attributing views to me that I do not hold. I wonder why you would want to do that?
The venomous hostilty to Gaelic which appears in social media is strongly associated with the subculture of sectarian British Loyalism and its intolerance of anything it regards as an expression of Irish or Scottish identity. It is not specifically anti-Highlander. I remember being on the top deck of a bus in Edinburgh when two overweight middle-aged gentleman from Lanarkshire, who appeared to be on an excursion to the capital, were thrown into paroxisms of temple-throbbing rage by the sight of a police car bearing the Gaelic legend ‘Poileas Alba’. Such people are often similarly vituperative in their hostility to the Scots language.
Spot on.
Never fea, Governor-General Murray (of Red Morningside) will care for the Heilans more than the Central Belt keelies in Holyrood !
So much tired old self defeating crap being recycled here. It’s not as smart as you obviously think it is.
‘Manic Festive trolling at work.
Any challenge to the monarchy gets them going.
I broadly agree with this take, but I think we need to aim beyond a ‘modern republic’ (the kind of stale, discredited, corrupt elected-head-of-state reforms proposed by the Republic pressure group) towards a ‘future republic’. Also Roundheads vs Cavaliers 2 foreshadows elite conflicts, betrayals and the reassertion of patriarchy, not the framing of culture wars I’d have hoped for.
I’d also summarise my comment from the 2024 page:
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On the question of constitutional reform, the House of Commons library has just (2024-12-18) published this research briefing:
The United Kingdom constitution – a mapping exercise
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9384/
which takes the form of a 279-page learned opinion (or imagination, perhaps) of the British imperial quasi-Constitution.
These kinds of documents are often as interesting in what they leave out. What is ‘unconstitutional’, a word that only appears once? … Why do the royals feature so predominantly, but nature/environment gets no look-in (except maybe as a resource for plunder)?
—
It is ridiculous that some commenters on the recent British Empire article somehow forgot the driving role of our theocratic hereditary monarchy.
Now, what would have been the result if the poll had offered a question along the lines of:
Should Scotland be an independent planet-friendly republic?
(swap ‘friendly’ with ‘defending’ etc and you might get different results; new ideas are typically difficult to sum up in short phrases)
#biocracynow
What a refreshing idea – as a past member of the armed forces (queen/king and all that) it would certainly get my vote!
A complete change from the past, of empire and all that crap, is certainly a bold way to engage with the youth of today.
Radical problems need radical solutions.
Radical solutions need courage.
Courageous actions need a trigger.
“There Is a tide in the affairs of men
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat;
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures.“
Carpe diem…and think of the future.
Where is the courage?
Bravo.
Quite frankly, I think you lot must have had a good weekend on the sauce, while up here in the offshore peninsula we have had 80mph winds the entire time & nobody with any sense has set foot beyond the doorstep. Not to say this article is thoroughly researched & interesting but it’s just not new is it, what happened in 2015 snp landslide, post referendum tho, wissit no? What we have is political consensus whether yous lot like it or not. Trump calls the shots so long as NATO remains in Scotland & the Scottish voter is so used to playing the tactical game he/she will be snp 1,2 & 3 in 2026 then back whoever he/she fancies in the UK polls. People do not enjoy change & this is where your argument really falls down, what people need & therefore enjoy is stability, they want to step out the door & see that the neighbour is the same guy they’ve known most of their life. They want to go down to the shop & find everything in much the same place as last time they were in. Hopefully the prices have not gone up all that much either & this is what really gets the goat of the non-voter who having been to university once upon a time could easily tell anyone with ears that almost exclusively what universities create are persons that would happily cut your throat if they thought they could get away with it whilst increasing their bank balance such is the state of a society which has allowed student debt to spiral off the map & created a generation that in order to survive almost by necessity has to be utterly ruthless, that is thatcher’s, tony bliar’s & I hate to say it new labour, dewar’s holyrood’s legacy to you, & it stinks of pure dogshite imo.
So, what do you want to see happen?
What are you willing to support?
No offence intended to anyone but if one has been burnt during previous endeavours it would be wise not to put one’s hand near the fire again. I shall sit back in an observational capacity & see what happens, I shall not be smug or of the I told you so brigade either. I stand neither to lose nor gain at my time of life so although interested in what happens I still am of the opinion that to trust a suit is to loose your loot & likely also, even a foot.
Only days ago ye promised is that ye’d be content tae haver tae yersel.
I suspect Mark would prefer to go back to the pre-devolutionary days.
not true, tho’ as per usual I am less than satisfied with the results so far & thir is ay room fur improvement, hae a gude new year 🙂
This article is quite an elegant superstructure built on flimsy foundations. Surely that question was leading? Much as I would like the ‘result’ to be true I would like this to be shown via properly worded, unbiased questions in several polls before getting excited about it.
Have to agree, it’s flight of fantasy stuff, no harm in that I suppose so long as it is recognised as such.
Read paragraph 4 – it says – ‘the first question is is the poll real , is it an outlier,
The writer has firmly stated his reservations.
this is worth a read
https://scottishleftreview.scot/nato/
This article was published in 2022 and Finland is now a NATO member. The world has changed quite a bit since then.
I am doubtful that withdrawal from NATO would carry a lot of popular support in Scotland at present unlike abandoning monarchy.
hmm, a royal air force without the royals, unlikely, & you overestimate how much has changed, nothing has changed except that constant political squabbles, half baked journalese, referenda & elections has only shored up power & authority with the suits & made everyone else’s life considerably more difficult & dangerous to the lasting benefit of no one
Nothing has changed in world since 2022?
Dogmatic responses like this do nothing but undermine the credibility of your posts.
then goes on to construct his edifice
So fucking what!
Why not take an optimistic view on possible good news on support for independence.
You come across ad a right misery guts – not happy unless your moaning about something.
Glad I’m not spending Christmas at your house- must be a bundle of laughs!
They are trolls, John. It’s their job and only purpose to distract, deflect, denigrate and attempt to demoralise.
…and offer criticism.
Graeme – you are correct and they appear to be multiplying.
Dateman – criticism is an integral part of discussion but it should be relevant to article.
Too many people making comments like trying to twist articles onto their own favourite subjects/ personal crusades. Others appear to think smart arsed (they think) cynical comment qualifies as debate.
Jings! Come on people, up your game. Mind, strictly on topic. And none of yon “personal crusades”. Let’s get this board cleaned up!
Yes, John. There’s not enough analysis and judgement of the merits and faults of the opinions expressed and too much ya-booing, virtue signalling, and ad hominem attacks. But… that’s life in a post-truth world.
“Surely that question was leading? ”
______
It most certainly was.
And the 59% is correspondingly worthless- although it provides some insight into the pauchle skills of the question’s coiner.
Should Scotland be an independent republic? The very question has such a great ring to it. Of course it should. For a country whose head of state has added real value to the nation’s intitutions, we need look no further than the Republic of Ireland.
Hear, hear. But three new variables need to be thrown into the equation: Trump, Musk’s money, and Charles’s probable demise and replacement by William. I personally think that the way ahead is by building not another left grouping but a united movement based on new definitions, taking a nuanced view on divisive issues such as the relations between class, gender, ethnicity, disability. As Steve argues so eloquently, Republicanism should not be seen as a divisive issue.
I meant to say “On the other side of the equation, I think that…..
Agree with this article and need for an approach to independence which signifies real change rather than rearranging the deckchairs.
I don’t think the monarchists amongst us and media have really grasped how significant the death of Queen was.
For most people in UK the Queen was a fact of life who they had been brought up with as monarch. Charles is a rather weak prince who has been mocked over the years. For the monarchists and media (see Mail headline) just to expect the public to forget and accept and respect Charles & Camilla was always a long shot. There is a lot of pent up frustration with Royals and the death of Queen was like removing cork from bottle.
In Scotland the Queen to many older people did appear to have a connection to Scotland through her mum, tenuous as it appeared to many of us. Charles professed love of Scotland looks false and is not reciprocated. William and Kate appear to be the embodiment of middle England including going to St Andrews University. Scotland was always more sceptical of royalty when Queen was alive but this scepticism was always only going to increase with her passing.
eh, st andrews is in scotland as I recall & is also the home of golf which indisputably scotland invented & goes to show we have been a showr of mad cnts for longer than many would like to admit
I am aware where St Andrews is.
The University of St Andrews has the highest percentage of English students compared to any other Scottish University. It is often chosen by students after Oxford or Cambridge University.
I make no judgement on this except to say that William & Kate appear to have little attachment to Scotland or Scottish people to them, even though they went to St Andrews University.
jings crivens are you suggesting that scotland in fact has for century been engaged in compromise with the upper echelons of english society at the expense & to the detriment of the lower orders either side of the border, yes or no?
You missed ‘help ma boab’ after ‘jings, crivens’!
Some notes from “The Enchanted Glass: Britain and Its Monarchy” by Tom Nairn:
“There is no other social formation known to history in which speech-accent occupies such a crucial and regulative function(65)… Not everyone can learn to speak like the Queen, true. But then not everyone needs to. Nowadays a wonderful vitality is commonly discerned in Britain’s subordinate and regional accents, like ‘the wonderful sense of rhythm once detected among black musicians”…No other nation has been crucified to such a degree by codes of pronunciation… The implication is never far away that correct speech leads into correct conduct, character, and style of existence – manner of pronunciation is (or is the best guide to) manner of life, general levels of civilization and culture… Pronunciation leads straight into the spiritual structure, the very soul of Regal British society: class” 66.
The Queen’s English society still exists. As much as one third of the country (England) has dreamt of the Queen. The UK State: “the metaphorical family unity of a Shakespearian (or pre-modern) nationalism.”(90) The “structural philistinism” of the UK and its “clerisy”, “A Royal (but not bureaucratic) thought-elite devoted to the brass-rubbing or coining of “traditions” upholding organic community, rather than an intelligentsia gnawing at its vitals” (92) so that any real questioning of the essence of how it works is frowned upon and the responsible party swiftly ejected.
“This spirit-essence will sometimes be called Ukania in what follows: the Geist or informing spirit of the UK. The name is appropriate because none of the existing handles quite fit: we live in a State with a variety of titles having different functions and nuances – the U.K (or yookay as Raymond Williams relabelled it), Great Britain (imperial robes), Britain (boring lounge-suit), England (poetic but troublesome), the British Isles (too geographic), This country (all-purpose within the family) or “This Small Country of Ours” (defensive-Shakespearian). Ukania also has the great merit of recalling Kakania, Robert Musil’s famous alternative name for the Hapsburg Empire in TMWQ.” (93)
“A cultivated instinct historically fostered to replace theory and principle, the feeling for Ukania is fed by palpable exemplifications – uncontestable images of reassurances and guidance. An anti-abstract ideology (or non-theoretical theory) is compelled to focus upon the ultra-concrete: visible things (or persons) radioactive with an otherwise ineffable significance… the royal personages are by far the most important of such radioactive family symbols…” (94)
“The management remains in the hands of an essentially hereditary elite whose chief attribute is knowing how to manage: their secret is knowing this secret. These family elders are…either bred or the products of a synthetic blood-line schooled into a simulacrum of breeding… This spirit is diffused downwards in a process of… familial articulation signposted by notions like ‘fairness’, ‘decency’, ‘compromise’, ‘consensus’, plural concessionary ‘liberties’, ‘having one’s say’, ‘tradition’, and ‘community’ – rather than the humourless abstractions of 1776, 1789 and after: Popular Sovereignty, democracy, égalité and so on” (97)
The Nation: “The monarchy and landed elite tamed the industrialization of England without succumbing to it…England never became a “bourgeois order” run by a conquering bourgeoisie. There was no movement to remove the crown, the royal court, the House of Lords, and the ascriptive public service nobility. Despite the decline of agriculture and despite insular security, which vitiated the need for a strong military caste, the landed classes managed to perpetuate this “archaic” political order and culture”
“We now have a perspective for understanding the absence of intellectual concern about Monarchy, Middle-brow Guardian reflection functions to preserve the national totem-system; the sense of proportion thus expressed is then refracted upwards to the high-brow or academic sphere as simple avoidance – an integrated intellectual elite’s chosen form of allegiance. Hence the remarkable result: the British Monarchy, Europe’s greatest living fossil, the enchanted glass of an early modernity which has otherwise vanished from the globe, has received next to no attention from British social theory. Even more to the point, such attention as it has got consists mainly of acts of worship rather than examination.” (115)
Monarchy played a vital part in the rise – after all the ground work by Burke and Pitt – of traditionalism, “in which the past was resynthesized as contemporary identity… the overriding national identity of the Crown… Theoretical indifference to Monarchy… is a manifestation of blindness to nationalism…” (127)
The Napoleonic wars were the nationalizing, homogenizing event in UK history, though it was only complete with the victory over Charterism after 1840. And always keeping ethnic nationalism or popular nationalism at bay – through the sleight of hand of the Crown. England chose to avoid maturity and embrace immaturity: “The UK’s contribution to the spectrum of nationalism was to be a unique familial patriotism intended to suppress all the awkward and plebian aspects of national awakening – its capacity for either a democratic or an ethnic assertiveness from below… Thus, it may also be said that the real question of nationalism – the question of its place as a constitutive part of modernity – was never solved in Britain because it was never raised.” (136-7)
Execution of Charles I on January 30th 1640. Thomas Herbert’s Memoirs – “the saddest thing I ever saw”. Wore 2 shirts so he wouldn’t shiver from cold. A new Great Seal of Parliament was ordered to replace the royal one and “what had been the Divine right to rule of a Monarch passed directly over to a militant Parliament – to an assembly of Puritan gentry and merchants representing property… It did not pass to the people…” (145)
“The Scottish and English Revolutions impacted on a world not yet ready, either theoretically or materially, for the last successor to Absolutism, popular sovereignty… It would take the Enlightenment of the century following King Charles’ defeat to produce the ideology of this change, and the revolutionary upheavals in America and France to show how the idea could be put into practice. The old British Monarchy was decapitated too soon. That was why it was able to creep back into the void left by its departure, head under its arm, to find permanent lodgement in the compromise of the quasi-regal power structure. Parliamentary victory therefore was that of one absolutism over another” (163-64)
“Monarchy is in this sense little more than the popular visage and social cement of GB’s unique version of capitalist development: the prolonged and baroquely gilded hegemony of “early” or commercial capital over all other phases.” And “the apparent detachment of the Ukanian Crown from the social nation… matches the permanent and functional separation of City capital from merely domestic concerns.” (241) Marx wrong about UK, which has always maintained above all a pre-modern form of commercial capitalism.
Ascherson (248) “It is commonly and comfortingly said that there is nothing wrong basically with British institutions…but that they are not working well at present because the economy is in such a bad state. The reverse is true. The reason that the British economy does not work is that British institutions are in terminal decay”. (248)
English literature as a kind of lynchpin, poetry especially. Or “the social mission of English criticism via the modelling of mature, higher selves. (262) T.S Eliot on H James –“ a mind so fine no idea could violate it”. LOL! Class has “furnished the Ukanian State with an ultra-stable social foundation which has been, none the less, easily mobilizable through the subjacent and more powerful unity of a Royally-defined nationalism- the shared (if often tacit) values of an imaginary familial community”. (265)
Perry Anderson and UK’s “absent centre”. “The decorum of an essentially Royal literature imposed parameters rather like those… on the plane of theory: traditionalism, conservatism, and hierarchy disguised as family. The mixture was steadying but crippling, above all to the rebellious and emancipatory avant-garde. Hence Modernism was to have less long-term impact on English than on most other contemporary literature.” (275)
Summation: “The Crown ideology is earthed in modern Britain as a surrogate nationalism: the sole possible ideal vehicle for a State at once extra-territorial in its economy and multi-national in its ethnic basis. Quiet Republicanism: Dilke, the poor Liberal who advocated republicanism and was never allowed to live it down, after Gladstone and co went into royal overdrive. T.S Eliot’s Monarchism despised because the real variety never speaks its name, never goes so far as to draw attention to the existence of Monarchy even at all.
Richard Rose on the mace, page 356: “In a political system that lacks both a sense of the state and a Constitution, the Mace is the appropriate symbol of political authority. The medieval origin of the Mace is a reminder of the long historical process that created the UK. In physical form, the mace is a five-foot-long silver gilt representation of prepotent power… and only when it is in position on the table of the House of Commons is it deemed to be in session” (356-357)
The UK has one sixth of govt org in Italy, one twentieth in Germany and one thirty fifth of France. (357) “Mere ethnic nationalism could never have supplied such loyalty; but the mystic super-nationality of the Crown and Constitution is another matter. These have been apprehended as the runes of civilization itself, which first Liberals and then Socialists persuaded themselves could be read in a sense favourable to their own designs” (260)
Time Scottish nationalists stopped following the same path as those “liberals” and “socialists”… the British monarchy is the essence of the whole shebang!!!
Scotland already is a republic. The res publica is just the realm of our public rather than our private affairs. The question is not whether Scotland should be a republic (it just is); rather, it’s the question of how we should manage our public affairs.
I won’t bore you with how I think we should manage our public affairs; I’ve been banging on and receiving dog’s abuse about direct, deliberative democracy, the principle of subsidiarity, ideal speech situations, and how having our own wee ‘independent’ parliament in Edinburgh just doesn’t cut it, ad nauseam here for years now. I’ll only say that the question we should be debating as a nation isn’t *whether* Scotland should be a republic but *how* we should henceforth conduct our public decision-making.
@Lord Parakeet the Cacophonist, I thought you were rightly banned for spreading your unionist lies on this site?
As David Torrance notes in The United Kingdom constitution – a mapping exercise:
“Republican activity also remains a felony under section 3 of the Treason
Felony Act 1848, although the House of Lords ruled in 2003 that there was no
likelihood of prosecution given that freedom of speech was protected under
the Human Rights Act 1998.”
And the path to becoming a republic is clear enough, for example in this footnote:
“In December 2024 the Jamaican government introduced The Constitution Amendment Bill 2024
which seeks to amend the Constitution of Jamaica to provide for ‘a non-monarchical Head of State,
thereby establishing Jamaica as a republic’.”
Scotland is not a republic. The UK is not a republic. The British Empire is not a republic.
Your disgraceful repeated attempts at misinformation miss out the significant element in definitions of republics which is “in contrast to a monarchy”. The Roman Republic was founded after the Tarquin kings were booted out, and fell when the Caesarian model came in, something portrayed in the Star Wars Skywalker saga, which perhaps anticipates events closer to home and time.
For the avoidance of doubt, in just one aspect:
“Audiences generally last approximately twenty minutes, and the conversations which take place are entirely private. No written transcript or recording is made.”
“Audiences are noted in the Court Circular, but as The King treats audiences as private meetings, no record of the discussion is made.”
“The King holds a weekly Audience with the Prime Minister to discuss Government matters. The Audience is entirely private.”
https://www.royal.uk/audiences
I was never ‘banned’; if I remember rightly, I was blocked from commenting after I called one of Bella’s contributors ‘entitled’, following her revelation that she thought bussing tables to support herself while completing her PhD was beneath her and had decamped to Morocco instead.
As you were told at the time, I’ve actually spent 30 years of my life ‘bussing tables’ (truly written like someone who’s never done a hospo shift in their lives), and when my scholarship ran out, chose to give up my flat, take a live-in hotel job (which, funnily enough, involves ‘bussing tables’), save up the money and have a solid chunk of free time to myself to finish writing my thesis – something that again, I’m guessing you’ve never done yourself, if you think you can hold down a full-time hospo job and ‘write in your spare time’. Lol. It was only Yahs that travelled when I was a wee lassie coming out of Leith Academy, so I have taken the chance to do so in middle age. If that seems ‘entitled’ to you, may I recommend psychotherapy?
Talk about showing your arse! It’s sad that someone in their twilight years is so unhappy with how their life has gone that they’re prepared to be so publicly, embarrassingly bitter and twisted about someone else simply taking an opportunity to spend some time abroad, learning about another culture. I pity you for never having the gumption to do so yourself – it might have made you a bit nicer hey! But then I think your much-evidenced militant atheism and crypto-racism informed your response to my article just as much.
Anyway away and prune your rose bushes, you sad old troll. I’ve got better things to do with my time. You, evidently, do not.
Aye. Dinna deave us wi yer havers, there’s a guid chiel.
anyhoo, before I retire for the evening I have to give JSwinney some credit for raising the possibility that choking or strangulation during sex should be a punishable offence, my question would be why is this even being considered, of course it should be an offence, people really do need greater educating/awareness of what is acceptable behaviour between one another & constant reminders it would seem that what happens in the virtual world of actors/trained professionals is not the same thing one should expect after leaving the confines of one’s house or flat, other than that I would also like to know who even is the minister for defence in the scottish parliament these days, or who is overseeing what goes on in scotland in terms of the impact the MoD has on those areas unfortunate enough to have to suffer the presence of their shenanigans, in addition to this what is the scottish government’s take on the MoD’s petitioning of the banks to increase their investment in so-called defence i.e., investment in further overseas interference. Without transparency on such issues I have to say I remain highly sceptical of pretty much everybody other than those closest to me.
Ye cannae help yersel.
I can help myself & yous should do likewise otherwise progress of any kind is unlikely
I was talking to Mike, not you.
But it’s always about him, Derek.
Why?
What can Mike not help himself about?
Very cryptic Derek – Carr to explain ?
No.
I dislike the present arrangement with a monarch and all his flunkys. Yes I’d like to see a significant change but do we want something like the USA with a powerful, and maybe rogue, president; No, we all cry.
Do we want a celebrity with unknown background or an anodyne has-been polititian to fulfil the ceremonial offices of state or do we want something like a balancing force with a leader and backup from the great and the good that would stand between the people and the legislature.
What we do need is an open and public constitutional convention that would ask these and many more questions to present options for a future Scotland. the outcome should then be presented as part of the independence effort with the promise that the people would have as say in the outcome rather than making decisions within party cabals and presenting them as tablets of stone.
@Dougie Blackwood, it’s far more serious than the flummery of royalty. Under the British imperial quasi-constitution, the environment is only there for royals to plunder (timber was a big concern from way back to the Tudors). Treason is against the monarch.
Royalists are gaslighting us by presenting the only (!?) alternative being an elected President, when there are myriad options. Neither royalist nor presidential forms of government are appropriate; both hail from the right-wing Great Man (Occasionally Woman) View.
As this letter from climate-concerned scientists puts it (and I think this is becoming more mainstream):
“Our paper, Earth at Risk, calls on leaders to recognise this crossroads of humanity, stop running in circles and draft new constitutions that are up to the task of navigating the future more wisely.”
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/dec/22/arctic-tundra-changes-are-a-dire-warning-for-us-all
#biocracynow
Sleeping Dog, you assume flat the alternative to monarchy is presidential government. That assumption is wrong.
Lots countries have a parliamentary government with a ceremonial president, including Ireland, Israel and Germany. In the case of Ireland, the president’s powers are very limited: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Ireland#Reserve_powers
A presidential system of government, such as that of France or the United States, is a very different thing.
I have never seen any serious proposal for presidential government in Scotland. All ge discussion has been about a ceremonial president in the Irish or German model.
@Claire McNab, I am afraid you have completely misunderstood my point. As I wrote, “there are myriad options”.
We don’t need to have any head of state, but if we do, why not have a virtual avatar instead of a regular human? Something that represents the whole of Scotland (nonhuman as well as human), something that accumulates no riches and cannot be bribed, has never and never will molest children or beat spouses, will not require Scottish armed forces to swear allegiance to it, cannot be blackmailed or intimidated, and so on without any of those dire drawbacks. It could be chimeric, in one facet drawn by one professional artist, in another by collective, in another by a primary school child, in another by AI. It has the benefit of being able to be in multiple places at once (a massively parallel president, perhaps), and maybe all we need to worry about is the carbon footprint.
By rationally reducing our ‘head of state’ to a mascot, perhaps then we can change mindsets from ‘leadership’ to collective decision-making (on behalf of the living planet).
There are various forms of republic, some very different from each other. Without further detail it is hard to say yes I want a republic. Is it an elected head of state or not, is the big question, and makes a huge difference. Personally I would not like an elected head as it immediately politicises it and quite likely gives a president considerable powers. The US, France anyone? You also have to ask yourself what kind of republic would the people tolerate, accept? It is relatively easy to to say we want rid of the anachronistic monarchy but much harder to say what would replace it. Scotland has had some form of monarchy pretty much forever and that has little to with the union. You might say that re-starting the Scottish line of monarchs might prove just as popular and distinctive. There is an assumption that all monarchies are simply bad / wrong but when you actually examine what a head of state actually is for (or argue what it is for), there is an argument for it and actually not so far from an unelected HoS in a republic. Several European countries have monarchies.
@Niemand, it is worth noting that the considerable powers of the USAmerican and French Presidents are related to the fact that both are nuclear empires.
The presidents of France and the US have the same powers as the head of government in any presidential republic, most of which don’t have nuclear weapons.
Same reason why I couldn’t vote for or against ‘independence’ in 2014. Without further detail, it is hard to say whether I want independence or not.
Part of the problem is that the desire for a ‘republic’ is as much driven by dislike (to put it mildly) of monarchy and especially the British one. In a way it is more about what the British monarchy *represents* than what a monarchy is (or could be). This is all understandable, relevant, but there is much more on that than on what is good about a republic, or even what it actually is.
In that respect, ‘republicanism’ is just part of a branding; a shibboleth that distinguishes one particular tribe from its ‘others’.
In classical republicanism, monarchy (in whatever form) is just one way we can govern our public affairs (res publica); democracy (in whatever form) is another.
As I said way back on this thread: the question is not whether Scotland should be a republic; the question is how should that republic be governed.
Ireland has a directly elected president, whose powers are largely ceremonial, unlike the French or American presidents. The Irish presidency is, like others, party political, but on occasion the president has acted more as a voice above politics. (Thinking of Mary Robinson and Michael D Higgins.) A kind of philosopher-poet role perhaps.
This is the kind of thing I had in mind:
https://www.president.ie/en/media-library/speeches/address-by-president-michael-d-higgins-to-the-scottish-parliament
Trouble is that people of that calibre are thin on the ground.
Dougie Blackwood, of high calibre candudates are thin on the ground, how come Ireland has had a series of very high quality presidents? The last three have been outstanding.
Why do you have so little faith in the ability of Scots to find and elect people of similar calibre?
@Claire McNab, for those of us not wearing blazers, what is this ‘calibre’ of which you speak? Is it something like Plato’s various metals of the soul?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie
‘Calibre’ is a measure of functionality rather than some natural quality; more an Aristotelian virtue than Platonic form. Paddy offered Mary Robinson and Michael D Higgins are paragons of that virtue; I think this is the ‘calibre’ of which Clare speaks.
Totally get your argument and thanks for putting it so clearly. But, I’ve an issue wi’ the word ‘republic’ – I’m naw alone ♀️ If used tae hasten freedom, I’m all furrit! But the cost could be potentially far higher than initially believed. So ma question – Once free, is being a Rebublic going tae be set in Scottish concrete, or could we, after all is done’n dusted, have a vote on Country or Rebublc. Bloc voting should be well possible by then and gosh, we all adore a referendum!! There will be many things to referend about, in our land of Scots.
Mon the next one!
If you read it, thank you!
Hi Jennifer, thanks for your comment. Once independent we can vote for anything we like! If Scots want to vote to rejoin the UK/and the monarchy we can – though this has never happened in human history.
Exactly- the whole basic principle of independence in a nutshell.
What happens in Scotland should be primarily dictated by electorate in Scotland.
So, the republic you’d vote for wouldn’t just be any old republic; it would be some kind of deliberative democracy. Join the club!
So is it time to start calling collaborators collaborators? Intimidation seems to be working well for the far right.
also worth a read in my humble opinion & interesting to note we were inveigled into two world wars during the scottish conservative unionist party’s domination of the political scene from 1912 go ’64 https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/full/10.3366/scot.2014.0012
This article assumes that a bunch of politicians who can’t be bothered to replace the Council tax because it’s too difficult for them would embark on a referendum on republicanism of some kind vs. the existing monarchy. That’s really, really fanciful.
pretty much the professional classes in these islands in my opinion, content tae dae fk all & draw a salary at the workers expense
“The idea of a Scottish Republic moves independence support from 54% to 59%.”
Does it?
It’s not clear from the GM-K/BiS report whether the sample that produced the 54% ‘YES to independent Scotland’ is the same sample that which generated the 59% ‘YES to independent Scottish republic’.
lol, I think what Mike in his wisdom has done is stir the pot to wind abdy up & create a bit of debate & judging by the length of this thread he certainly has done the trick so tae speak
@mark leslie edwards, well, reactionaries gonna react. The ‘sanewashing’ of the monarchy (and NATO) is like painting the Forth Rail Bridge: on and on it goes in all weathers less the rust win and the edifice fall.
It surely cannot be long before someone just spits it out: these are the Natural Order of Things, and let the more literal types understand what Craig Levein was trying to tell us by playing 0-up against the Czechs. It’s all hypocrisy and cant (and in the monarchy’s case, nepotism above all).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_order_(philosophy)
So, where are these bluebloods, high-calibre/gold-metal types and North Atlantians on the scala naturae?
A really disappointing reaction Below The Line to what might be a breakthrough poll…
As usual on Bella, the thread is totally dominated by the inevitable two or three posters to the point of total boredom and tediousness for the rest of us…
I remember a long time ago Bella used to allow readers to vote on comments, uptick or downtick. Childish maybe, but it might help to dissuade come of the usual suspects above if no one voted for their comments. Certianly, I can’t be the only one who just skips any comments by some of the above names…
No doubt they have something interesting to say now and again, but no one interesting has so much to say as sleepingdog and the person who posts a date instead of a name… I mean, is there a single article they abstain from replying to?
Boring….
Uptick.
Upticking may be childish but not half as childish as the tsunami of responses from the 2-3 usual suspects that we are now overwhelmed by on virtually every comment thread.
I think Mike just needs to take a harder line with the prats.
Agreed. Word salad in particular should be discouraged.
I know. I can’t believe he keeps letting me back.
Neither can I. I’m gratified that you recognised that you fall within my categorisation.
Hi Douglas
we did use to have comments, uptick or downtick.
Do people want that back?
Mike
It might help, but blocking folk whose contributions are consistently and willfully negative and destructive might be simpler.
Its under active consideration. I’d like to encourage more people to comment as well as delete people that are deliberately/relentlessly negative.
Suggestion – adopt the rules from ‘Whose Line Is It Anyway’
Block comments if they are repetition or talking off subject of article?
This might encourage more constructive comments (both critical and supportive) which in turn might also encourage more readers to comment.
1. Everyone with the competence to speak and act can take part in a discourse (nae blocking).
2(a). Everyone can question any assertion whatever.
2(b). Everyone can introduce any assertion whatsoever into the discourse.
2(c). Everyone can express their attitudes, desires, and needs without any hesitation or reservation.
3. No one may be prevented, by internal or external coercion, from exercising her rights as laid down in (1) and (2).
241227 – spot on. All this talk of banning, etc is a nonsense.
It’s not a nonsense. If you want completely unchecked, unmoderated comments go on 4Chan or Reddit and fill your boots with rage and bile.
Here’s our comments policy: https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/our-comments-policy/ – if people break it they’ll be removed. As you were.
Just a minute. I was removed? For how long? If you’re talking about my comment being removed, then fair enough, that was deserved (as was the comment deserving) but what appears to be happening is that certain posters are jumping on to other’s comments, then complaining that there are too many opinions. That’s just not on. Especially when some of them are obviously posting at night. Just to be absolutely clear, I do not want to “fill my boots” with rage and bile. Far from it. I want it to be the forum that I joined. Can you please name the 2-3 posters who are hijacking subjects please? Just so we all know.
‘As you were’ is a comedic phrase, it is not a reference to you, nor was the reference to rage and bile.
@Douglas, thanks for the update about your feelings, but being bored by below-the-line comments is not-even-a-first-world-problem. If you have some substantive point about any of my comments, please make it.
Dissent requires more than assent (where cheers, nods or even non-communication will do). Of course, long-winded assenters can do much more than is required.
Downticks are useful for Internet pile-ons; upticks for promoting more comfortable or partisan posts. My argument would be that this would simply reinforce the kinds of electoral (un)popularity contests that we should be getting away from. I’m not sure what you’ve got against children; I would have thought they’d be very well aware of the mental health issues regarding social media, in this country.
An interesting article but the comments section immediately hijacked by English Agents peddling their usual nonsense divide and rule propaganda about Highlanders and Lowlanders. Seriously, I am 64 and I have NEVER encountered anyone in the Lowlands articulating any kind of hatred towards Highlanders. It’s not even a thing anymore. The Irish knew what to do with English Agents like ‘mark leslie edwards’ and his fake Scotticisms.
Just so. They appear to be getting desperate and scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Aye! The bastardin English, eh?
Not that your comment is really worthy of a reply given that I believe no one has a choice where he or she is born or what accent they end up having but having put in the necessary work to trace my own genealogy I have to say I myself am so Scottish & so Highland it is practically embarrassing. There is no-one in the family tree born any further South than Aberdeen in 7 or 8 generations, not that such knowledge makes my life any easier when the usual representation of people such as myself in mainstream media is either of the Braveheart/outlander or trainspotting/my name is joe category. Your wee xenophobic retort does however raise another important issue vis a vis why this proposed further re-run is doomed to failure & that is because there are a huge number of folk in Scotland from places in England & a whole lot of folk who feel themselves more English than Scots, possibly as a reaction to bigots such as yourself. There has also been an awful lot of interbreeding over the centuries so that a common response to any Scottish nationalist crusade by many folk is, My dad/mam is, my Granda/grandma wis English. Therefore, let us just call this renewed drive what it is, it is in part the same old protest to ensure that Scottish interests are at least considered/not forgotten about by Westminster & it is also something for folk with too much time on their hands to get hot under the collar & rant & rave about. That is pretty much all it is because unless the SNP/Scottish Government abandon their commitment to NATO then they are nothing more nor less than simply Edinburgh’s official HQ of the Great British State making them in global terms every bit as guilty as every other constituent part of the whole rotten Imperial edifice.
That’s why civic rather than ethnic nationalism is the way ahead. It doesn’t matter where you were born or how you identify yourself; as far as the conduct of our public affairs or ‘politics’ is concerned, you’re Scottish simply in virtue of the fact that you participate in the civic life of that polity.
Ho hum, you are, perhaps purposely, missing the essential point which is if the SNP & Scottish government are committed to NATO then there is no real difference in global terms between their position & that of the Tories & Labour either side of the border. All you would be doing in holding another referendum or campaigning for one is to fall into the trap yet again of repeating the colonial lesson & in so doing you are ironically enough actively serving the interests of the British State by creating further harmless waffle/ pointless distraction that will take folks’ minds off what the British State is actually doing behind the scenes which I’m fairly sure you’re worldly wise enough to know will never be anything good.
I don’t get it, mark; why would an independent Scotland as part of NATO be any different in its status from any other non-UK member of NATO? Canada, Denmark, Latvia, Albania, and North Macedonia are all NATO members; none of their capitals are HQs of the Great British State.
And why should the SNP be, like Tweedledum, diametrically opposed to each and every policy a Unionist party holds?
And what does any of this have to do with how we should govern our public affairs; i.e. to what kind of republic we should aspire to?
It would seem my right to reply has been disabled, how very democratic, mind you, I should have had more sense than to engage with a topic that has wasted so many people’s time for so many years. What would an independent Scotland mean to people living in Scotland under the Holyrood as opposed to Westminster governments? Answer pretty much exactly the same or possibly much worse. So why fkn vote for it. That’s me done here, you can continue your waffle in lala land.
I suspect your beef isn’t with the ‘Great British State’ as such but with how we collectively govern our public affairs on these islands. I share that beef.
The state is just the apparatus through which we collectively govern our public affairs, our ‘res publica’. And, as I said above, I’ve been banging on for years now about the sort of republic I’d like Scotland to be – about direct, deliberative democracy, the principle of subsidiarity, ideal speech situations and communicative action, – and how having our own wee ‘independent’ parliament in Edinburgh just doesn’t cut it.
All that was ever on offer in the 2014 referendum on whether or not the Scottish government should be independent of the UK government was the status quo: our own wee tartan Westminster in Edinburgh; nae direct democracy, nae subsidiarity, nae communicative action. I think the con was that we’d get our wee Westminster first and THEN decide how we’d collectively govern our public affairs after, as if the latter wouldn’t be a fait accompli of the former.
It should be up to us, in our workplace and neighbourhood councils, to decide through mutual deliberation and argumentation whether or not we delegate some of our decision-making to subsidiary bodies like a Scottish/British/European parliament and/or military alliances like NATO.
And to achieve that kind of republic, we need not just constitutional change but establishment change: a change in the entire matrix of formal and informal relations through which power’s exercised in our society; a fucking revolution, man; anarchy in the UK. And that anarchy will come with the immanent collapse of the capitalist world order into economic and ecological chaos.
anarchy in the UK is not cool, you would do better to listen to eric b & rakim which is very cool, cheerio
Under late capitalism, it is indeed anything but cool to speak of anarchy. Everyone’s shit scared of the prospect of systems collapse.
Hallelujah !
The sooner all of Scotland wakes up to Scotland being treated as second class citizens the better and maybe they will realise that Scotland would be better off as an independent country.
In what respects are people in Scotland treated as ‘second class citizens’? Do we not have the same civic rights as every other UK citizen?
Unfortunately we are all victims of the British class system whereby we are judged by our accents, where we live, grew up, where we went to school & so on, just try modifying your voice i.e., talk a bit posh & dress a bit sharper, put on a shirt for example, you will be surprised how many folk start addressing you as ‘sir’. Whereas if ye walked in wearing yer usual paint spattered boiler suit ye’d get about as much cut as the poor guy having to sell the big issue just to get himself a cup of hot soup this Christmas.
Where’s the evidence that Scots are more likely to experience such snobbery than people from other parts of the UK.
But whether you’re a survivor of such snobbery or not, people who live in Scotland still enjoy the same civic rights as people elsewhere. To speak of [the people of] Scotland being treated as second class citizens [by the bastardin English] is to talk shite.
I can only speak of my own experience as a working class Scottish male, I did not refer to anyone as, to use your phrase, ‘bastardin english’, I’m not sure it’s snobbery so much as social conditioning, I felt even as a child that it was a strange thing for children to be herded into what I saw as a junior prison i.e., primary school, before they’d even had a chance to commit a major atrocity
Very well said. I am saddened that poll after poll only ever show support for independence at just about 60% at best. I would like some rich donor to pay for a far wider poll of, say, 500,000 people all across Scotland to see what the reality is. I suspect that the true figure is actually nearer 70% and would be willing to pay to see that in print. Polls taken on the fly at farmer’s markets, fairs and in the street always show support at 75% or above. Such an official poll result would be a very positive step in gaining independence as it would bolster confidence and embolden people to aspire for much, much better in the future.