Trigger Warning: Identity politics needs criticism to survive

This is a time for reflection. With the right and the far-right in ascendancy it’s time for dialogue and revival of the left and progressive forces.
Here’s Loki with some reflections.

Comments (47)

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  1. Alison says:

    Always appreciate your articulate – considered – thinking out loud. First reaction to this
    one is your recurring references to feelings of resentment – as you say ultimately
    unhealthy and destructive. Brought to mind the Carrie Fisher quote from her recent one woman
    show. ‘Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die.’
    Not easy to ditch but worth the ongoing effort. Taken me until early 50’s – sure you’ll get there
    much earlier. Happy 2017.

    1. douglas clark says:

      Explain to me what insight you found in this piece. Frankly it appeared to me to be devoid of any real meaning. And articulate has a meaning, which that did not resemble. It didn’t even make sense.

  2. Alasdair MacLennan says:

    “This is a time for reflection. With the right and the far-right in ascendancy it’s time for dialogue and revival of the left and progressive forces.”

    I see no evidence in Scotland that “the right and the far-right in ascendancy”

    I see evidence and trends to state that this phenomena has traction in England, but not Scotland.

    As for this being a time for reflection, refection leads to procrastination and lack of action. The right in England are not reflecting, they are taking action, now. The left in England need to stop endlessly reflecting and take the right on head first. Interesting watching for us in Scotland!

    Forget Apple and Nestle for the time being, the overwhelming priority for all progressive people, parties and factions in Scotland is to unite in 2017 and focus on independence. Only independence will save us from being dragged along in England’s right wing wake.

    1. Hi Alasdair, your Foreign Secretary is Boris Johnston and the UK govt has proposed checking the teeth of asylum-seeking children coming into this country, we’re being ejected from the EU on a wave of xenophobia and have draconian new police laws.

      None of this have we control over.

      Your idea that we should never pause and reflect seems a disastrous one.

      1. c rober says:

        Ed , sorry to push against the grain , but some of us do actually want checks on those portraying themselves as what they are not.

        Those portraying themselves as children , in their 20s and 30s , well perhaps they are stealing a place from actual children… so checks should be in place , and yes they are more definite tests that could be used.After all we do Xray our own childrens jaws do we not?

        The right ascendency is there , just yesterday I seen on the BBC , so with the usual pinch of salt , in that even non EU immigrants are anti EU and blaming eastern europeans for their plight – but then again it was a shop keeper , whom may just be feeling the pinch since the romanian shop keeper opened.

        While you are right , about the lack of control in being undemocratically removed from the EU , well its the same kind of deaf ears on our politicians that have led us there , and their using the EU and immigration as a farting dug for historical lack of investment – in other words a diversion that they thought would keep on running.

        The attempt to kill off Ukip , the reason for the EU ref mandate , has failed spectacularly. But the wealthy will still profit , as seen by the London and elsewhere special deals , and none for Scotland.

  3. Helena. says:

    Thoughtful and interesting piece.

    There are many people who IMO at least, correctly see identity politics as corrosive especially as far as genuine state Liberalism (as defined by Hobbes, Locke, Mill and his harm principle and so on) is concerned and the associated intersection of social justice. In fact, the conflation of identity and politics ‘the personal is political’ (be that gender, sexuality, nationality within a multi-national Liberal democracy) is itself more an extension of the ego, a subjective reaction rather than an objective empirical analysis of any given situation. Feelings of oppression are mistaken for the empirical fact of oppression (such as the law, or other sociological measurables). All open debate then descends into personal offense (cue the long line of outraged ‘identities’ who all claim that personal experience must be the definitive aspect of public engagement and debate. How dare a white middle class man comment on transgender issues, how dare David Bowie comment on Scottish independence. How dare a white unemployed guy in Dundee who grew up in poverty measure himself against an educated middle class women who has a professional job?) And each identity requires an opposite, a catch all enemy to push against and validate itself. For post, second wave feminism ‘snowflakes’ it is white (mostly middle class) men, but also all men if they challenge the orthodoxy. Nationalism/ secessionism (within Liberal democracies), the larger state England, Canada, Spain, Italy.

    The irony/ paradox is that the rise of ‘identity politics’ is testament to the success of liberal democracy and the reduction of genuine structural oppression on the basis of identity. People have the space to find such agency to the point they can now dictate the agenda and public discourse.

    The shift is that feeling oppressed is now considered exactly the same as actually being oppressed. And this blurring of things is doubly ironic as it is the biggest threat to that very objective Liberalism and democratic openess that allows such space – e.g. banning people from university for example, trigger warnings for controversial topics in universities, public shamming of those who dare challenge the identity orthodoxy or aren’t ‘on message’, using ‘we’ or conflating ‘Scotland’ with the Yes movement thereby denigrating the No voting guy who works in the Sawmill in the Borders as less Scottish and thus less worthy of an opinion.

    Essentially, if politics is personal and entirely a case of subjective experience and identity, then what’s the purpose of Liberalism which was conceived to manage such subjective identities and experiences and disagreements. The situation is absurd. Identity politics, despite the Liberal claims is in fact highly illiberal. It confuses a political outlook (the left mostly) with Liberalism – this happened a long time ago in America, but is now in UK also.

    This of course isn’t to say that there isn’t structural oppression for certain people, nor that some people may be probable to be subject to oppression depending on the grouping they belong to (no one is going to argue that a women in Saudi Arabia is not oppressed simply by virtue of being a women – she simply is) but more a questioning as to whether all members of said group can be homogenized as suffering the same oppression and whether categorising things in such a way is the best way to address problems and issues? Is that Saudi women – or the women on benefits in Manchester or Glasgow etc – really the same as Kate Middleton or Nicola Sturgeon or many of the vocal, generally university educated, current wave of feminists in the homogenised ‘sisterhood’? a It is a fallacy to conflate the oppression of ‘some women – simply because they are women – measurable and undeniable – such as the Saudi women or the Manchester mother’ as oppression of ‘all women – because they are women’. One does not necessarily correlate with the other and it is an insult to do so. It is absurd to claim that Nicola Sturgeon or Theresa May are suffering from the same vague and nebulous patriarchy. In actuality, conflating all members of said group together actually reinforces unfairness, as it undermines the identification of genuine oppression which doesn’t exclusively follow the neat lines of identity as those who indulge in identity politics assume and insist upon.

    Worse than that it also has the effect of reducing the individual to a block type that creates a new form of oppression whereby a select few take it upon themselves to police the herd. See the ‘collective’ of the Yes movement, or the dictatorial way that some insist others must define themselves in a manner perhaps not of their choosing even if they are part of the group by default, marginalizing all other aspects of identity. e.g. You can be Gay without wanting to make it your main touch stone. You can be a women and not be a feminist. Ditto you can be Scottish incidentally and prefer to identify more so in another way say as an opera lover or a footy fan. This freedom to choose political identity (however politically incorrect some may find it) is crucial in a functioning democracy where by people will necessarily be offended and disagree and chose different things. Put simply, toughen the fuck up. Being cat called on the street by a bunch of scaffolders is not the same as genuine violence against women however annoying or unpleasant it may be. It is not a sliding scale where all is validated. To claim so is to denigrate genuine oppression and the victims of violence.

    The problem is that if your staring point is identity, then all things must follow to reinforce that identity. It is a logical fallacy.

    The argument goes something like this.

    All issues must be seen through the mono prism of identity – let’s take contemporary feminism (not the old kind of Wollenstonecraft and Pankhurst where there were mountains to climb and genuine structural oppression).

    100 hundred women in a room.

    Feminist asks…

    1) Question: How many women feel as though they have suffered discrimination in the workplace.
    2) Answer: 90 put up their hands.
    3) Conclusion: Women suffer discrimination.

    But you will always get this answer if you start with an exclusive data set designed to get that answer. But the truth is the answer would be the same if you included multiple identities including different classes of men. So, the conclusion is entirely tautological and worthless. It does not in any way prove a Patriarchy. To claim so is simply bad logic apart from being totally unempirical, ask Aristotle or AJ Ayer. These are not sound syllogisms and thus it is no way to address genuine structural oppression (that may or may not have an identity aspect – again no one is denying there is ‘some’ identity involved, nor that ‘some’ women are discriminated against). In fact, the best way to address structural unfairness and discrimination is to see what people who suffer oppression have in common rather than endlessly focusing on difference and atomising groups and pitting them against each other.

    Anyway if you interested in further criticism/ debate around identity politics, perhaps clearer analysis than a layman like me, see Johnathan Haidt, Joanna Williams, Trevor Phillips among others if you haven’t already done so.

    1. c rober says:

      Might just be me , but more coherent in type than in front of the camera old chap , take it the worming tablets are working.

      I agree though with most of the subject material , and the proven point that identity politics is essentially division , one nurtured if not created , to give limited unpower , or its appearance , to those aggrieved. Throw a dug a bone dammit.

      Wollf (not canis familiars) and Chomsky speak of the same , and its rise over the last two years – but hinting at it being on the rise since Thatcher and Reagan , eventually creating the global meltdown in the chasing of wealth , so its back to the deflection politics sphere , regroup , and repeat.Brush , Kerpit.

      Some would say exactly how we end up with the rise of the far right , or billionaires in the whitehouse to empower the working poor as socialism supplied by democracy – even though socialism in America and Communism are one and the same…. a dirty word.

      Data , just like a good accountant , is subjective to the desired outcome from the end client on where it should land – much like the true inflation rate , unemployment figures , or Gers. Unless you trust the data given , have it analysed to repeat the outcome forensically like all sciences by peers , then it should be questioned , hard ….. and then done again , before swallowing.

      Which is one of the reason I reckon our education system has a role to play in the creation and organisation of an independent Scotland , holding failures to task , as well as legislatory legitimacy in new laws by our politicians. Especially so , with thinking out of the box for solutions , perhaps even preventing problems before they happen , and fortunately wont have to look to seek a further term unlike politicians. Ie the housing crisis , the aging crisis , the population crisis , fairer taxation and land tax , and my personal crusade housing 2.0 removing the wealth of the banks.

      Data is the new power , or if we look at it correctly has always been the old power , in that the ability to control supply , and/or destroy the information , then it will always be outwith the hands of the many.

      For me there is only one kind of idenity politics , that of the wealthy and the poor , where alignment is served , supplied , by selfism – either slave to the maisters by consent , or by acceptance.

      In order to not be those under them humans will always choose to eat today , rather than to be eaten tomorrow…. and the social experiment along the lines of farm domestication , ie breeding a more stupid animal , either at the polls , or in the field , has borne fruit.

      Tribal selfism , identity politics using age as the medium , well Its the single biggest reason why UK politics today is shaped by the pensioner vote , by bribing them , or making them fearful of the pound in their pocket , much like how Putin keeps his power.

      Thus is it in our best interests , hoping to eventually live long enough despite the increasing age to claim being outwith that of the Glasgow effect , to prove to them that the data points to a very dark situation , in that without immigration , independence and an increasing birth rate , well we simply cannot fund the IOUs of their late life state income , health care and care need , which means our future own… So they , we , need to accept change now… before Logans Run or Solyent Green.One cannot argue that science fiction can be a warning , just like scriptures to the religious , after all 1984 is and has been happening for a very long time.

      Political change in theory should be supplied by the biggest majority of taxpayers , the worker – but is prevented where division is achieved by selfism and of course misdirection , ie the non farting dug under the dinner table , be that immigrants , the EU , benefit claimants , even China in the case of Merica.

      Of course statistically over the next two decades the largest part of the population will be those pensioners in the political ointment , ourselves , so we should be shaping today for our tomorrow…. showing todays pensioners they need not fear , for their supply within independence will eventually be our own.

      Thus I.P can only be tackled by radicalism , of which perhaps we can now consider Physical not virtual participation as the new radical , of data in the form of alt media counteracting the wealth protectors MSM own , of door knocking and rallying , not as politicians , but as concerned and convincing arguers for change away from wealthy vs ALL poor.

      Whas lik us?

    2. James says:

      You absolutely hit the nail on the head:

      In actuality, conflating all members of said group together actually reinforces unfairness, as it undermines the identification of genuine oppression which doesn’t exclusively follow the neat lines of identity as those who indulge in identity politics assume and insist upon.

  4. douglas clark says:

    I have no idea where Loki is coming from. It is easy for me as a white, possibly middle class, Scottish male to endorse everyone else. What exactly is hard about allowing women, people of colour, the whole sexual mix-up, did I miss anyone he wants to endorse?

    Of course they should have equal rights.

    He gets somewhat mixed up on superior and inferior rights. I did not understand that bit.

    Should they have rights above and beyond the rest of us?

    No.

    They should they have exactly the same rights?

    Yes.

    I maybe mentioned, further up. that I have no idea where Loki is coming from. Giving marginal space to his critique, he is confused. People are just people and should be treated accordingly. I.e. fairly.

    Another axis is dominant / submissive. Quite how Loki deals with that is moot. There is zero explanation.

    I feel exactly that way now.

    1. willie says:

      What a load of drivel Douglas. Have a good new year and keep yer heid oot o yer Erse. Regards

      1. douglas clark says:

        willie,

        Perhaps you could explain to me what enormous insight your hero Loki provided you with? As it currently stands the man has little or nothing worthwhile to say and neither have you. Please feel free to persuade me otherwise.

        Happy New Year.

    2. Graeme Purves says:

      Perhaps you need to consider why it is so important to you to try to invalidate what Loki is saying, Douglas?

      What he says about resentment struck home with me.

      1. douglas clark says:

        It actually isn’t particularly important to me, I am well past the stage of being lectured about equality. It is obviously the case that everyone in any society ought to expect and receive fair treatment. Quite why this requires stating is one of life’s mysteries.

        1. James says:

          Douglas,

          I must admit it’s a little hard to reconcile your comments on Loki’s piece with the idea that you actually listened to it. You seem to think he’s criticising identity politics in general. He isn’t, he actually clearly states that he thinks identity politics is entirely valid. What he is criticising is the way that it has been delivered, that the extremists seem to control the narrative and that anything that opposes the narrative is attacked, not with reason, but with highly aggressive rhetoric.

          He doesn’t suggest that people shouldn’t have equal rights; he doesn’t suggest that you can’t endorse them; in fact it’s axiomatic from his commentary that you can. What he’s trying to point out is that you should be able to criticise “progressive” logic without being shouted down for questioning an individual’s perception of the world. Which, to use the lingo, is to privilege your own experience over theirs. Except that of course your own experience will always be at the centre of your thinking since you have no other way of perceiving the world.

  5. Anna Mac says:

    bollox

  6. douglas clark says:

    Anna Mac,

    Is that a comment on my comment or a comment on the opinion piece?

    It seemed to me to be the most confused piece of self serving idiocy that Mike has allowed on here for a while.

    If there was a point in it, I expect I am not alone in failing to spot it.

    1. Anna Mac says:

      My comment was to Loki

      1. douglas clark says:

        Anna Mac,

        Thanks for clarifying that. I thought it was just me!

  7. douglas clark says:

    Most of us are probably middle class. Especially you Loki and also the groups you claim to speak for. Women, lots of ethnic minorities, lots of gay people are middle class.

    Identity is unique. I am me, you are you. It is absolute rubbish to argue that resentment of the middle class is the point. It is perhaps more to the point that a tiny percent of our population has a massive percentage of the wealth. Frankly, attacking the plutocracy might have been more to the point. I am, potentially, middle class, perhaps. Aspirational bullshit Quite why that would be wrong, I refer you to my earlier comment that your target is the wrong target.

    We are alienated, but we are are alienated not from a middle class, we are alienated from a plutocracy. If you don’t think that, then look at America.

    The plutocracy does as it wills. It gropes women just because it can. It even gets elected after that.

    Your target is all wrong,

    I have perhaps uniquely listened twice to your stuff. It made no more sense the second time around.

    You, sir, need to engage btl.

    1. c rober says:

      Dunno , What middle class hes on about , real ones , or those self perceived or aspiring to be.

      I found lokis meandering somewhat confusing also , perhaps the seasonal gift of bath salts werent simply used for the bath? Mibbe the ginger dug needs a visit tae the vet.

      The true middle classes , of wife at hame with a nanny , while husband brings home the bacon from the workers backs , where both are degree educated are perhaps long gone . Much like that of the 50s Britain that the average Brexit voter hankers for.

      But in their wake are the nu psuedo middle class , formed from the right on hipster psuedo socialists , with a bare few clutching an actual worthless degree , perhaps educated in History drama or the arts , yet are now in politics or middle managers within our councils , within Jobs their education has no relation to , serving communities they have no link to other than being parachuted into…. and like a once favourite comedian , all of whom now unable as a result to connect with their audience.

      The biggest con in political history of a generation is to fool the working classes that they are the new middle class – its divisive for a purpose. Its colonial control of the masses , by giving them an alternative enemy , while you asset strip them. Its worked for the “British” empire for too long to remember.

      In todays Uk that enemy offered numbers two.

      Its the Benefit claimant rather than the wealthy banker , through the workers low wages and high outgoings , without wage rises in 10 years serving to ferment their anger further , and the devalued pound by our politicians hands and their hidden inflation.

      Or its the immigrant , when they take up jobs and housing no one wants , and then impact local services – like underfunded schools , NHS , lack of social housing building , that 30 years of Westminster creating wealth for the wealthy has resulted in their misdirected anger.

      With Blairs Labour , declaring the classless society , and afterwards that we are all middle class , it was though about getting into no10 thus power , and being Tory lite is what did it in 97 , hardly any of those “Nu – socialists” have portfolios of under 2 million pounds as a result today.

      But while that new middle class they appealed to , the middle Englander , worked then and there specifically , well it simply isnt their core voter in Scotland , though it is in certain Geographic areas of high employment , high income , in Scotland , notably the same areas that voted to keep the union.

      With Scotland and its working class roots , well It took the offer of a nobbled parliament to do that , a chocolate fireguard indy supplying more jobs for the same , but that genie cannot be rebottled . they cant simply take the baw hame efter they get put oot the park game of world cup ….. as Donald Dewar once said “its a start” , and I dont for one moment think that meant anything other than independence , or at the very least a fairer devolved federal union.

      Of course the betrayal of a nation in 2014 , and arguably long before then , it didnt help anyone in Slab over the long term. Instead it moved the unionist , new or old , middle class psuedo socialist Scottish voter to Scots Tory , back to the protectors of wealth for the few…. ship , rats.

      The working class educated SLAB voter , well they too deserted the sinking ship , perhaps unblinkered now seeing a biased union for what it is , and Judas level politics from its own , contemplating whether the Labour they once knew even still existed since the demise of Dewar.

      Me , well I will call myself working class , and champion it , wishing no harm to those that wish to be the real middle class while remaining proper socialists…. rather than unionist selfists.

      2017 , roll on indy II.

      1. willie says:

        Aye C.Rober, there is certainly some pish about. Problem is that the pish artists have absolutely no idea that they are spouting pish.

        1. c rober says:

          Thanks willie , could be worse , could be upgraded to sh!te.

        2. douglas clark says:

          willie,

          There is certainly some pish about. It is mainly written by your good self. If you have something to add to the conversation perhaps you could engage rather than trivialise. Maybe not. Or, perhaps, that is all you are capable of?

          Best wishes in your attempts at diversion.

  8. douglas clark says:

    Hello Loki.

    You said you wanted to engage. Now is your chance.

  9. old battle says:

    Post-Truth 16

    We who struggled through this long dishonest year, filled with printed actual ‘factual’ LIES & fear: a confusion of fictions, BBCeed daily with fabrications, nightly, fresh Bird-dropped fallacies as Tory-policies, fibbery and fable shipped from London stations.
    We watched as mendacious politicians filled us fu’ o dirty prevarications, alt-right shite Mailed to you with a media-mix of fraud & London politricks.
    This yoonery-fakery ushers in a lying-time, when falsehoods win & truth is made a crime. But the Jack’s truth is a fart-pack of bitter-together-tales & lies.

    In this cauld deceit-filled year of knaves
    come, wipe awa the tears.
    Gaither up the guid-willed and the brave.
    Rouse the aye-sure voices
    win the doubters seeking choices
    get ready for the coming battle-year
    speak the truth: fight the fear.

    Our truth will not lie: our hope will not die!
    Our truth: a shared liberty!
    Our truth: the people’s victory.

    Our truth is our honest destiny
    Scotland’s Sovereignty.

    The trewth KIN set yu frie
    An fhìrinn saor sibh
    The truth CAN set you free

    1. c rober says:

      Truth can set you free , all well and dandy , but the delivery of truth is retained by our maisters – the wealthy elite , the billionaire media owner , or the control state via our elected representatives.

      Need to have a whip roon for Syria and see If I kin roon up a few bags of truth to help them oot , but then again John 8.32 is christian mantra , so would no doubt be insulting to muslims on muslim genocide. On the ither haun , its not like either the West or Russia is purveyors of truth on that matter neither.

      Then again Truth can also be redacted by our politicians , McCrone report, Gers , true inflation, EU membership automatically? More so when parliamentary privilege protects them in their “criminal” actions , like illegal wars.

      Truth today , doesnt matter , take Brexit and the lies – yet not one person has asked for a re-run , the bigger the lies , the more often they are repeated , the more they are believed. From immigration to benefits fraud , while avoiding non dom billionaires , or personal or multinationals tax avoidance.

      If Scotland wants Truth , then it has the power to punish the liars by Holyrood acts instanly , say full front page retractions and fining the days copy income – yet oue great SNP have been strangely silent on this during indy 1 , and on prevention of further lies going unpunished as a result in indy 2.

      Truth , well its all a matter of perception , of 20.20 vision , of perfect hearing , our politicians though are our opticians , and seem to be prescribing blindfolds and earplugs.

    2. willie says:

      Maybe with all this angst and ambiguity about who or what middle class is, we could encourage our legislators to specify an evidence based test to statutorily assess class. Maybe a Royal Commission in fact to take evidence so that there will be no doubt to the objective test. And with certificates of class being issued we could have annual reviews to allow for the inevitable movement in and out of the various classes. And with various classes I don’t just been lower, upper and middle. No, I think we need a complete range. Think lower middle class, aspiring middle class, not really middle class, upper middle class, and we’ll have it licked. And of course we could have appeals for those who don’t agree with the class assessment made of them. Yes, that’s it, a points system. Mnnn, this late night early morning beverage us just grand – more Champers than Buckie though ! – none o yer Plebeian pish here.

      1. c rober says:

        Wille mate , that wis pure class.

  10. douglas clark says:

    Hello Loki.

    Want to talk or just spout your rubbish above the line? Seems to me you are happy to spout and are apparently unable to engage, or discuss tour ideas even. You have had many chances to engage, you just haven’t had the bottle to do it. Pretty weak Loki.

    Perhaps you are just working up to it?

    Take your time.

  11. douglas clark says:

    tour maybe your.

  12. douglas clark says:

    c rober

    Perhaps you and I have different definitions of class, our mutual hero Loki seems to assume that a definition of middle class starts and ends with the plutocrats. I find that unhelpful.

    You, on the other hand say this:

    “The true middle classes , of wife at hame with a nanny , while husband brings home the bacon from the workers backs , where both are degree educated are perhaps long gone . Much like that of the 50s Britain that the average Brexit voter hankers for.”

    Which is equally unrealistic. What you choose to describe there are get rich quick capitalists, those on the way to the plutocracy, not the middle class that generally works for a living, may indeed be degree educated, may save your life on an operating table, but employs rather than exploits other people. That is a what they do. I speak of my betters here, as I exploit not a soul. Frankly your ideas of who the middle class actually are are nearly as risible as Loki’s. Obviously that is ridiculous. Loki is an unchallengeable icon of righteousness endorsed by Mike, It would be ludicrous to suggest that that king has no clothes.

    Except it wouldn’t, would it?

    1. c rober says:

      Douglas Clark.

      I agree with you , as I mentioned its the “psuedo middle class” that are indeed the enemy , mostly to themselves , but also to the working classes they now perhaps feel above and superior to as a result , ie the fooling of the working class that they not actually working class – Its not like the “proper” middle class degree educated strike for their own workers rights , with the notable and accepted exception of junior Doctors and Certified nurses , but the worker class different situation.

      I do know of many working class people , that by your definition could carry the middle class badge , and like you note are both self made and perhaps local employers , with very few with an appropriate degree educated for their employment/business – whom are proper socialists at the same time , carrying their badge on their sleeves , thus closer aligned to the meaning of working class…. and are proud to be still called working class.

      I live in (when in the UK) an affluent suburb , in a somewhate expensive home , well compared to the national median waged earner , yet next to some of the worst areas in Scotland for social deprivation.

      The majority of these people are working class , from both spectrums , yet both are fooled into 7x multiple main earner mortgages , with leased German marque cars they also cannot afford , holidays to far flung places like Vegas and Disnaeland , in other words both havinf aspirational lifestyle – but on credit….. and both lapping up the blaming culture for their lot on benefit claimants and immigrants , rather than on millionaire politicians and of course the bankers.

      So essentially yes the middle classes , the psuedo middle classes , as well as the working classes are all to blame – through accepting division , that is if they dont adopt the wider socialist , if not solidarity , of a independent Scotland , meaning a better life for all , not just their class thus the fewest , and perhaps ironically creating a ” classless” society that will arise as a result.

      I know its hard not to fall into a Godwyns law on internet soap boxes , but perhaps Niemoller had it bang on , even in todays politics.

      “First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
      Because I was not a Socialist.

      Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
      Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

      Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
      Because I was not a Jew.

      Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.”

      Division is perhaps then the true enemy , and those that want to accept it.

      1. douglas clark says:

        Niemoller – who I too have quoted extensively – was bang on back then and stands as an example to us now. May I apologise for being overtly aggressive towards you?

        You make sensible points sensibly.

        Division is indeed the true enemy. It has almost nothing to do with class.

        1. c rober says:

          Of course douglas , thanks.

          One can also argue that indy too is therefore division , thus bad.

          But not all division is bad if it prevents a worse one , ie over a colonial weapon of control through division that creates and protects wealth for the few , that is if it serves to mean a better option than continuing that unchecked , unelected foreign Govt being the control of our own personal , or national pockets as their owned assets…. through their interloper media , parachutist implanted managers , or traitorous Scots governors.

          Personally I would rather be poorer by my own hand , by my own choice , while improving my nation from the poor up , than poorer generationaly , by that of a biased union aiding its bigger partners wealth creation for for the few. I dont think I am alone , therefore its only a matter of fine print for an altruistic majority in gaining consensus for supplying pur sovereign owned financial levers , which will benefit the many more than the few , and importantly over the long term.

          310 years is frankly far too long to pay for the failure of the greedy landed gentry.

          The near 2.5 years since indy and resulting change in the wind means the time to strike is now.

          The removing of the “soft yoon” blinkers from the selfist protectionists.
          The EU turnaround in indy promises.
          The 80000 jobs dependent on EU exports while denying Scotland a fair shake to remain in the EU , while others that voted to leave are rewarded at our costs.
          The removal of civil services tax jobs or our military bases , but not trident.
          The low oil price transient workforce returning to England and Dubai.
          The watered down vow of 2014.

          These are all too fresh in our memory to simple not capitalise on with an indy in 2017…. and before the “all is rosy” spin machine and PF II kicks in , and lets face it they dont have the numbers this time around.

          So this is the battle , to replace division and replace with national consensus , regardless of religion , income , political sphere , class (psuedo or otherwise) , nation of birth , or even geographical location ie EU expats , thus that single answer to supplying indy is dependent on one question ” will we be better off” , very Tolkienesque , one ring to bring them all – not instead to rule them all.

          We simply have to prove there is a better option FOR ALL WITH a proper “hands not tied” self governance , amalgamating thus defeating a socially engineered forced division by our colonial maisters , and that probably is the home rule federal option , at least for the time being.

          Of course like all warfare , and believe me it will be exactly that for HMG to retain its second highest income generator region for national GDP , even with low oil price in indy II , then we will have to fight fire with fire.

          We may need to call upon those that once took to the streets , repeating the poll tax days of right on hard core socialist students , standing shoulder to shoulder with former red clyde unionised workers , the proper middle classes , and the poor , in order for physical boots on the streets dissent…. not merely an ipad virtual or emoticon one during the BGT adverts.

          Only an independent Scotland will provide that of which Scotland deserves , we are the last colony not an equal partner , nor are we the Barnet parasite portrayed wrongly (just like the EU) in the English owned media , which means we simply have to police those that give lipservice to supplying a promised indy nation – as hard as those wishing to prevent it .Fool us once….

          The ball is therefore in the SNP court , literally , they can use the courts and prevent the MSM as well as punish , both before and after the starting pistol – But will they , after all how much real punishment did they do about the lies in round 1? Or in handling benefit sanctions and preventing human and legal rights of claimants? These are the fights I expect , nay demand , of our ELECTED Government in order to show they mean business in protecting us , not instead inaction.

          This time around we need radicals , we simply cannot be the lone lapdog in a room of terriers.

          Its time for the SNP to bear its teeth and also be radical … and that may mean thinning out the Tartan Tory pack within , currently 30 percent , perhaps opening doors to the few remaining Socialist Slab politicians that will refuse the whip to replace them , and before Holyrood is also rendered redundant by Wesminster…. just like NuSlab today.

          Its not the size of the dug in the fight that matters , its the fight in the dug , with indy 2 politically its a pit wan to the death – well for the SNP should they fail again…. so we may even need the wee ginger wan in that fight also , that if he kin stop draggin his erse on the kerpit.

          1. douglas clark says:

            Thanks for your analysis in your longer post of about 9 hours ago. A lot of food for thought.

  13. douglas clark says:

    Indeed the pseudo middle class, the late adopters of greed are indeed the enemy. They have ambitions directed at exploitation of others. Which is pretty well unacceptable to the rest of us. Mark Frankland always says it better than I. Without a social consciousness we would be no better than the upwardly mobile, exploitative fools that write with abandon of principle all over t’internet. Where Loki is right, although it hardly needs saying, is that solidarity of purpose ought to cross all artificial barriers of identity. The inability to see common purpose is, perhaps, how we lost the referendum. Greed – or fear -outplayed solidarity, perhaps.

    Sad.

    1. c rober says:

      I prefer to think that we were beaten , rather than lost , just like the national football endeavors , snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is our war cry.

      However 2 years is a long time inbetween games , the players have nearly changed , as well as a stadia.

      Perhaps though the referees were less than impartial , making up the rules as they went along as well as supplying dodgy edits to the bent rule book itself , or even aided by the poor performance of our fielded team of mercenaries wearing the national shirts wieghed down by the silver in their pocket , whom get paid regardless of effort could also be applied for protecting their salary…. whom never again got selected as a result.

      Guy wiz right , even for an Englishman , it is a funny old game.

  14. Frank says:

    I struggled to listen to this piece which is nothing more than one man’s narcissism masquerading as analysis. I genuinely don’t get why Bella promotes infantile crap such as this?

    1. MBC says:

      Middle class guilt

      1. c rober says:

        MBC

        “Middle class guilt” , sounds a little like a medical excuse for Jnr failing to get good results and onto Uni for his media and arts degree.

  15. Matt says:

    Interesting comparing Loki’s thoughts with the Jonathan Haidt’s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqUtgFBWezE

  16. Can I draw everyone’s attention to Bella’s new Comments policy?

    https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/comments/

    1. c rober says:

      Well thats me fooked – I hate everyone fairly and equally.

    2. douglas clark says:

      I referred to your link to your new Comments policy. Quite how or why do you think I broke it?

      So what?

      If you insist on publishing nonsense then good on you. You will fade into obscurity if you keep presenting Loki as a credible commentator.

      Perhaps if he actually engaged in discussion below the line, I just assume everyone, including you Mike knows what btl actually means…

      You are never scared to comment. Loki is. He never replies. It tell me just how fragile his opinions actually are.

      His inability to respond is why most of us moved away from main stream media (msm) because the lack of engagement was class related – intellectually they were better than us, in their own minds – and we were folk to be talked to. Clearly nonsense. Loki practices the same bullshit.

      If I want anything out of Scottish independence it is for that notion of superiority and disengagement to be chucked on the fire.

      No-one is better, nor worse than me. And especially someone who can’t defend their opinion pieces.

      (I seem to recall making a similar point on the Guardian, many long years ago. I suggested that their favourite liberal commentator was a bit of an arse. Over the enlightenment or summat. Barred automatically for challenging an author. Are you like that Mike?)

      Prove me wrong.

      1. c rober says:

        Douglas , from the way I read it , so bear with me , it is about the number of sock puppets appearing – and not yourself , specifically the masked yoon , in and out again like a ninja premature ejaculator.

        It is not unexpected to believe there is indeed a war on the alt media , organised or individual , after all one only needs to look at the enemy and their tactics to keep or create colonies , but sure this can lead to accusations of tin foil hat conspirators and paranoiac as a result.

        But then again the belief in a supernatural being as a superior and our creator is just as silly as alien probing in the midwest , aka intergalactic rapists. One section in society always needs faith without proof in order to believe , the other needs proof more than faith , and there definitely has been an increase in sock puppets shaking up the latter – therefore proof.

        Thus my opinion is its not personal , literally , for you cannot count the anonymous as a person.

  17. douglas clark says:

    c rober,

    Fair enough. I will leave it at that.

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