2024, the Year that Wasn’t
The first in a mini-series looking at where we are at the end of a tumultuous year of change, stasis and breakdown.
As a year of turmoil carnage and absurdity grinds to a close, things may seem less clear than ever. The situation in Damascus, Paris, and Seoul (and elsewhere) is, despite a flurry of hot-takes, chaotic. But let’s not pretend this is new. Way back in 2011 Paul Mason wrote “Why its all Kicking Off Everywhere” describing a world facing a wave of uprisings, protests and revolutions: “Arab dictators swept away, public spaces occupied, slum-dwellers in revolt, cyberspace buzzing with utopian dreams. Events we were told were consigned to history—democratic revolt and social revolution—are being lived by millions of people.”
So what we are living through isn’t new, its the continuity and intensification of a process that’s been going on for a quarter of a century. But if anything the timeline is darker now, the Arab Spring and Occupy movement have come and gone, the independence movement was defeated, and since 2011 we have seen Trump ascend to office (twice), the fiasco of Brexit and the climate crisis intensify and deteriorate. As for “cyberspace buzzing with utopian dreams”, we are now faced with the Broligarchy and the Xodus.
So little is predictable in a world facing system collapse on multiple levels simultaneously that a degree of humility is required. Sometimes nothing makes sense, sometimes you don’t know what’s going on.
Closer to home things are not going as planned either.
2024 was supposed to be the year everything went back to normal. A generation of well remunerated columnists and gatekeepers informed us for months and months the following was about to happen: Labour would regain office and begin to deliver a change agenda of social and constitutional reform; this would both lead, and be propelled by Scottish Labour’s advance; this twin phenomenon would lead to the collapse of the SNP and the defeat of the independence movement. The mood in the camp was smug, confident and self-assured. The political task was reduced to the bromide of ‘get rid of the Tories’. Everything else would be fine. The deja vu was overwhelming.
The narrative behind this confident messaging was of a country ‘returned to normal’. The faithful Unionist scribes and commentators who produced these messages (I think we’re all familiar with who they are) have been less vocal as the Starmer honeymoon has turned sour and all the indications are that the long-awaited return of Labour is, in fact, a political, and electoral disaster. The ‘great re-set’ that the orphaned centrists both longed for, and presumed, isn’t happening.
Instead, a new poll from Norstat for the Sunday Times suggested a Scottish parliament set projection of 59 seats for the SNP:
More significantly, backing for independence has also risen to 54 per cent, the highest level for more than four years.
This wasn’t how it was supposed to be.
The analysis from the Sunday Times, who commissioned the polling and so were reluctantly obliged to publish it, suggests that the surge in support for the SNP was the result of a popular budget, with the backing of winter fuel payments, a commitment to eradicate the two-child benefit clause, as well as investment in housing and the NHS proving popular. Allied to this was the political collapse of the credibility of Anas Sarwar, as his (bizarre) position as the ‘defender of Scottish interests against Keir Starmer’ was exposed as a nonsense. Scottish Labour are hopelessly compromised by their own party and their own colleagues.
“The finger of blame for Labour’s predicament,” the poll-gurus John Curtice said, “points to 10 Downing Street.” He added: “Far from easing Anas Sarwar’s path to Bute House, Labour’s victory in July has seemingly made his task harder.”
There’s two question spring from this situation: How has this happened? and Does it matter?
So how did this happen?
I think that the unremarkable story from the Scottish Budget is one that has been crying out for the SNP for a long time. We are in an ongoing cost of living crisis, in which people are suffering growing poverty, inequality and destitution. Every indicator shows people in crisis, people who can’t afford to live in this society. Do the basics well. Respond to what’s before you.
That they are benefitting from a (basic) programme of modest social reform which contrasts strongly with Westminster’s continuity economics and politics is unsurprising. It all does beg the question, what would the electoral benefits of actual, more substantive political bravery and radicalism? Of course this is all predictive, the SNP actually have to now deliver some of the promises they have made, and so this may collapse. But they have the basis, a platform to try and reconstruct their battered political credibility.
The Unionist political parties are completely divided, cut in two by the emergence of Farage’s Reform Party, a ghost at the banquet that has no real base in Scotland and remains a media-entity sustained by its leaders ever-presence on our pan-UK broadcast media and by the obsession with immigration of our tabloid press. This is not to minimise the threat Reform pose.
Thirdly, despite the great efforts of our phalanx of redoubtable journalists, the Labour party’s rise to power has been a crushing disappointment. This is not a surprise. They told us before they were elected that weren’t going to do anything. It is a feature not a glitch. This is, as Joe Guinan wrote, brutally but accurately, Blairism Re-Heated:
“One of the consequences of having an ideology beached by history is that the dominant register of centrists has gone from the ebullient future-claiming hubris of the Third Way at its height to the nastiness, victimhood, and self-pity of the Labour Right today.
It may be satisfying to them from a factional point of view, but a recipe for government it is not. Warmed-over technocratic centrism is no match for the challenges of our times, in which economic and climate crises are interacting with the Covid pandemic and the rise of a neo-populist right to create an ‘Age of Anger’ in which perceived apologists for the status quo are given short shrift by electorates. The best that the Starmerites can hope for is to once again secure the position of the Labour Party as a rampart of the British state, made safe for the interests of capital and the ruling class – and therefore back in business as a revolving door into well-remunerated jobs in lobbying, the privatised industries, and the nonprofit-industrial complex.”
In this sense, Starmer & Co have successfully aligned themselves with ‘the country’ (England) in an entirely backward-looking project. They have proved themselves electable (once) but they have given ground and ceded politics to the right and the far-right in doing so. They have not – just as the Democrats in the US failed to do – provided a credible vision or a possible alternative to the politics of the right or of populist English nationalism. Instead they will be consumed by it.
This is why Labour is collapsing in Scotland.
But does it matter?
Many of you will be tired and bored of the SNP as the vehicle for political change. Haven’t we all been here before? What possible difference does 54% make if we don’t have a route map to independence?
These are good questions and while the SNP may be performing with some more competence and focus, it is another thing to imagine Swinney and Forbes creating enough momentum for real political change rather than managed social reform.
However, maybe its not up to them. The projection upwards onto political parties for leadership is not a winning formula. The 54% figure is remarkable, given the SNP’s own track record in office, given the failure of political leadership, given the (forever) ongoing police inquiry and given the surround-sound of hostility that pours out of the press every day. This has a deadening effect on the whole country.
If we are at 54% now, can you imagine where we’d be if we had had better leadership, more inspiring vision, and more radical ideas and policies? Can you imagine where we’d be if we had more control over our own media and the story we tell and are told?
Building a majority for independence can only exert pressure and momentum. This will need insurgency and imagination and the creation of alternative parallel structures for the emergent Scotland. Labour, far from being the saviour of the Union as so widely predicted, may in fact be its undertaker. Keir Starmer had an opportunity to show that there was an alternative within the Union for progressive change and reform. There isn’t.
Spot on Mike.
”Read my lips …” Unfortunately for Sarwar , we did !
The fact that Labour MP’s representing Scottish constituencies voted to cut WFA while Labour MSP’s are demanding Holyrood reinstate the WFA is so obviously cynical and indefensible that only Labour apparatchiks can rationalise and defend it. I wonder what the electorate in England & Wales think of this two faced approach?
It is all too apparent that Labour MP’s from Scotland see themselves as UK Labour at Westminster despite campaigning as Scottish Labour at recent GE.
Labour’s much hyped revival in Scotland was primarily based on not being in office and accountable and the unpopularity of incumbent governments. Now they are in power at Westminster they no longer have this luxury.
What were Alex Salmond’s ten best questions?
I don’t know?
Control over the economy, and especially all the information requisite to it, is reserved to London. Typically this has been an obvious advantage to Unionism.
But (perhaps counter-intuitively) it should be understood as a serious weakness now. The UK economy is caught in a tail-spin that it cannot escape. This is bad enough but it is made even worse by merciless Private Equity raiding on it too. UK politics is paralysed by this and has nowhere to go.
The SNP leadership and Yessers generally need to make the economy the front and centre of political attack, every single day, and never lose focus.
Yes yes yes. As Clinton said, It’s the economy, stupid … and London wrecks Scotland’s economy.
Para. 5, line 2: “remunerated’, I think.
Oops. Thanks.
In terms of inspiring leadership and vision, the SNP might usefully start by beefing up the Land Reform Act so that its provisions are capable of making a real difference. What the Scottish Parliament has before it is a depressingly timid effort.
Agreed, for this to happen the SNP will need to up its game and change
I think this is too simplistic. It appears to me that it is very hard to conflate the demands for better government from a political party with its ultimate goal of Scottish Independence. What I would like to see is that the SNP mature enough to accept that as a political party, and set up or be a generous midwife to a broad civic movement for Independence (and future Scottish governance structures). Half hearted policy papers from ministers exhausted from their governing duties doesn’t make for good ideas, or at least an easy targets for opponents to the proposition.
What specifically is too simplistic?
This will need insurgency and imagination and the creation of alternative parallel structures.’
What exactly will this ‘insurgency’ and these ‘alterative parallel structures’ amount to ?
Hi Florian
I think we need mass civil disobedience NVA as part of any insurgency movement – and people can be imaginative and thoughtful about what that looks like – I think we also need citizens assemblies and to draw on ideas like the parallel polis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_Polis
and technologies such as:
https://pol.is/home
which have recently been showcased to the SG.
‘we need mass civil disobedience’
What would this consist of ? What reason is there to think that a ‘mass’ of Scots will participate ?
‘the parallel polis’
In our (imperfect) democracy, political legitimacy comes from success at elections. The Scottish Left has given up on elections for a number of years now. What legitimacy will your ‘parallel polis’ have ?
I thought it was made clear that this should be seen alongside elections and polls showing mass support for independence, if I didn’t I do now. These are not separate but parallel to electoral support (the clues in the name).
What do you want? You asked me for examples of what I meant, I gave you them. They are entirely reasonable and akin to say, the Greenham Common protests, the Committee of 100 or the Poll Tax protests.
You give 3 examples of direct action protests.
The Committee of 100 campaigned for unilateral nuclear disarmament. More than 80 years later, the UK still has nuclear weapons.
The campaign at Greenham Common was to prevent the introduction of cruise missiles. Despite this, the missiles were installed and only removed as a result of negotiations with the Soviet Union.
The Poll Tax was withdrawn but this was due to Tory MPs (justified) fear of losing their seat at the upcoming general election. These MPs deposed Thatcher, relaced the poll tax and won the 1992 election.
If you win an election, you do do not need protests. If you fail to win an election, your protests will – rightly – be ignored.
Right, fine. Gotcha. No peaceful protests.
Protests never won anything.
Stay in your homes.
Never speak out.
Be obedient.
I understand.
Thanks.
@florian albert … and if you see a jackboot, lick it. Iron heels forever!
Of course, the British government is only ‘ignoring’ protests in the same ways as the authorities ‘ignored’ the pro-democracy Peterloo protesters; and don’t forget the draconian Six Acts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Acts
and their modern equivalents (is Australia the only nation locking up more environmental protesters than the UK?).
Florian is talking generalised nonsense here and proving again they are a cynic rather than a sceptic.
I don’t think it is unreasonable to say that the implementation of Poll Tax in Scotland in advance of rest of UK and the country wide protests (including nonpayment) were a significant factor in building up support for and galvanising action towards Devolution. It also got the government to scrap Poll Tax which was a success.
The massive protests against invasion of Iraq in 2003 have had a long term effect on making British governments less keen on getting involved in foreign military operations.
The protests may not always achieve its primary objective but they can engage people (especially younger ones) and open them up to an alternative political outlook than the one perpetuated by major political parties and media.
Lastly saying that the government rightly gets to do what it wants due to getting a majority is beginning to look undemocratic to many people as the Labour government got nearly 2/3rd of seats from 1/3rd of vote at this years GE.
The article is mostly drivel, the hardline bias is not worth going over, but he has to keep the churn churning. I am guessing that the social disobedience (lets call it an outbreak of organised criminality for the sake of truth), involves a facebook group of people with sociology degrees setting mattresses on fire and chucking bricks at busses. Or maybe it involves not chatting on X.
You ruin another decent article with a pointless attack on Craig Murray. What is it with you?
Hi Derek, its estimated that more than 300,000 civilians have died since Assad turned his guns on Syria’s 2011 Arab spring pro-democracy uprising. About 14 million people, half Syria’s population, have fled their homes.
For Craig Murray to describe this regime as ‘flawed but pluralist’ is astonishing and disgraceful. You’re welcome to disagree.
“Astonishing and disgraceful”. Aye, ok. If you can’t see or understand the context in which that remark was made, the whole grotesque carnival that is the current situation in Syria, then fair play to you. Doubtless you’ll be cheerleading the White Helmets next. If you get round to covering it that is, other than a cursory mention in the first paragraph of your article. Like (I’m sure) a lot of readers on here, I don’t only just follow this site, and it makes me uncomfortable when you criticise people whose views I (broadly, before you start quoting all the things I don’t agree with him on) share.
@Derek Thomson, in general terms, I suppose the context includes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change
And the effects of CIA destabilisation tend first to make a regime more authoritarian, security-focused and oppressive, which may turn a population against its rulers. There’s a lot of relevant history, and many relevant comparisons. Of course, the UK is not pluralist, members of its established church sit in parliament, its hereditary unelected heads of state (responsible for many millions of deaths worldwide) have amassed vast wealth extracted from home and abroad and cosy up to the worst kinds of foreign dictators (which make Marina Hyde’s recent remarks rather an eye-plankfull).
What would have happened if the NATOist empires had let a secular, socialist, women-friendly pan-Arabic power bloc emerge?
Describing Assad’s brutal and murderous regime as ‘flawed’ is the specific problem here. If ever there was a weasel word, it is this. And what is the point of pluralism if you get thousands thrown in jail, tortured and murdered on almost any pretext?
@Niemand, the term ‘pro-democracy activist’ is also weasel words, used by Western powers to back regime change. We have our own pro-democracy activists in the UK, of course, the likes of Unlock Democracy and Republic (their solutions appear to be tinkering with the system rather than regime change). Democracy is actually a pretty shitty cause anyway (the expression of human dominance over the planet), and political activists are more generally concerned with ends rather than means (and democracy is a means-based politics). If we say our head of state should be bound by our laws, then we will need to get rid of our hereditary monarchy. Was Assad’s regime any worse than any other in region? What do you expect will replace it? What has happened in similar circumstances before?
What we are seeing looks a lot like the pattern described by Mark Curtis in Secret Affairs: Britain’s Collusion with Radical Islam:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Affairs:_Britain%27s_Collusion_with_Radical_Islam
Well, Hamas seem pleased by Assad’s fall, anyway. The ground has been prepared, after all.
I think he was worse, yes. What happens now is another matter but he was ousted by the will of other Syrians. I accept some of what you say about ‘pro-democracy’ but ‘flawed; for Assad is in a different league, like saying the Taliban is or even the Nazis. It is a totally ridiculous thing to say and makes the sayer an idiot. Craig Murray can talk some sense but sadly also and repeatedly, some utter crap and that undermines his credibility overall (like those fools defending Putin because they hate the West – their own as it were – so much it has blinded them to reality. In other circumstances they would be genuine traitors and yes, that is a real thing).
“Ousted by the will of other Syrians”. Eh? Have I missed something? This mob that have already started public executions, is it their will? Where will this lead? And most of all, why? Cui bono? As for Assad being worse than the Taliban or the Nazis, I assume you were angry when you were writing that, as it’s clearly hogwash. I hold no candle for Craig Murray, or for that matter the Assad regime, I just don’t like being lied to.
Killing an estimated 300,000 of your own population (including using chemical weapons) is more than flawed it is murderous and barbaric..
What will follow – nobody knows let’s hope it respects the people of Syria rather than a faction (religious or ethic).
Niemand is correct in saying that some commentators are so blinded by dogma or hatred of one side that they are willing to overlook their perceived enemies enemy perpetrating atrocities.
This one eyed approach of not being able to see the wood for the trees undermines their viewpoint and ultimately opens them up to ridicule eg George Galloway.
Personally I tend to look to organisations like Amnesty etc for viewing governments actions from a moral standpoint rather than commentators with a political slant who often end up indulging in a form of moral equivalence.
@John, and who is responsible for what Amnesty International says are 300,000 lives claimed in Yemen in the war initiated by the Saudi Arabia-led military coalition?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde31/7932/2024/en/
In case of the Syrian civil war, it seems a little odd to frame this in terms of a President killing their own population, which would apply to Abraham Lincoln, even if technically accurate. You might be better distinguishing between active combatants and civilians.
The point some people are making is the double standards in reporting the actions of Official Enemies, and those of Valued Allies. Saudi Arabia gets to torture and execute pro-democracy activists, fund terrorism round the globe, oppress women, and is yet awarded the right to hold the football World Cup in 2034, a decision which Amnesty calls ‘reckless’ and will lead to deaths and human rights abuses.
That Turkey seems to have been one of the main players in the military operation that installed a new government in Damascus is presumably not reassuring to the Kurdish population in Syria, for example.
Perhaps the only useful function of our kind of representative democracy is the periodic chance (every 5 years or so) of bloodlessly* replacing an unpopular government with an as-yet-not-so-unpopular one, but there’s no indication that this has happened in Syria, nor that the foreign backers of the coup are interested in anything other than installing a proxy or puppet regime to further their own interests.
*not entirely guaranteed, see USAmerican invasion of Capitol 2021
I quite understand the desire of Syrians to get justice for the many crimes of the Syrian regime, and to prosecute those responsible. But applying international justice to political leaderships tends to depend on how powerful their allies are, as we’ve seen with Israel. And national justice can be quite partisan too.
It’s not a zero sum game. Denouncing the Assad regime does not detract from denouncing others? In terms of being an absolute dictatorship the Assads are yes personally responsible for the deaths they oversaw.
@Editor, but why are there so many dictatorships in the region? Do you attribute this to internal factors alone, or are there important external factors we should recognise? And why do you think the secular movements across North Africa and the Middle East have lost so much ground since the 1960s?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Arabism
Good questions. It’s an extremely messy complex situation. I don’t profess to be an expert in it. If, you are suggesting that the West (mostly US) has repeatedly intervened to pursue their own interests, I agree, that’s undeniable.
John, whose one-eyed viewpoint are you referring to?
Sleeping Dog and others seem to fail to understand the old adage that 2 wrongs do not make a right.
There is a tendency by supporters of different sides to defend the indefensible if it is ‘their side’ which perpetrates the atrocities.
This can be evidenced by people that support actions of Putin in Ukraine, Israel in Gaza, Assad in Syria, Pinochet in Chile etc(the list goes on & on unfortunately).
This turning a blind eye approach often done by indulging in whitabootery (Sleeping Dog you are a serial offender ) only makes the commentator look hypocritical and inhumane and undermines their case.
@John, it is not ‘whataboutery’ to use comparison to highlight double standards.
The comparison with Saudi Arabia is instructive because we can see what leverage can do for states. If the Saudis were subject to the same kind of sanctions as the USA (a serial offender when it comes to illegal unilateral embargoes) applied to Syria, how long would its regime last?
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/saudi-arabia-threatened-sell-european-debt-if-g-7-seized-russian-assets-report
The UN General Assembly has recently debated ‘Ending Unilateral Economic Coercive Measures’, which would give you some idea of the strong views on the subject. Which is hardly surprising considering estimates of how many people economic sanctions have been estimated to have killed, and who they worst effect (the poor, sick, children, marginalised etc).
In what respect am I taking anyone’s side? In what sense am I supposed to be conjuring a ‘right’ out of all this? In what possible way am I turning a blind eye?
Sweeping generalisations and insulting remarks. Well done you. I refer you to SDs last paragraph.
SD – I am more than aware of hypocrisy and terrible impact of USA policies often supported by other western nations.
This discussion started about Assad’s regime in Syria and in every post you reference what happened in Syria by saying but worst things are happening elsewhere. This is literally what whitabootery is! I am not particularly disagreeing with the other issues you raise but by referencing Assad ‘s regime in this way you come across as trying to underplay the regime’s undoubted mass atrocities.
@John I don’t subscribe to the right-wing Great Man (Occasionally Woman) View of Politics. The crimes of individuals lie on their own heads, but to solve political problems we need to consider political systems. If you had studied neocolonialism and particularly CIA destabilisation, you should be familiar with the idea that you don’t always need to assassinate a designated enemy leader (which was frowned upon after the 1975 Church Committee, apparently) but if you can make them paranoid, they will likely ramp up their oppression, cruelty, secret police, censorship, and create murderous inefficiencies like competing security factions.
In any case, assassinations can be counterproductive (see Kill Chain: Drones and the Rise of High-Tech Assassins by Andrew Cockburn), and assassination programmes degenerative (see Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel’s Targeted Assassinations by Ronen Bergman).
Thus, malign external forces can often create enough real threats to make a leadership see imagined ones. In USAmerican intelligence jargon, I guess you could call that a force multiplier. Of course, the malign external forces typically have no concern about the atrocities the target regime might carry out on its own people: that’s rather the aim. Then the regime can be weakened from within and toppled with mercenaries, proxies, fanatical shock troops, without the foreign power needing to expend blood and treasure.
Derek – from what I have read your issue appears to be with the criticism of Craig Murray calling Assad’s regime as ludicrous. The evidence of deaths, prisons , torture and obscene personal wealth of Assad family would certainly make Craig Murray’s statement a ludicrous understatement.
We all have commentators we agree with and respect but even the best of them write things that are flawed or we don’t agree with. The ability to critique a commentator rather than universally support everything they write is the difference between being an admirer and an uncritical follower.
It’s worth rembembering Craig’s great wisdom on the moment when Russia had amassed tank divisions on the borders of Ukraine.
On February 12 2022 Craig Murray wrote:
“The mainstream media is, without exception, repeating the unevidenced claim from the Biden administration that Russia is about to invade Ukraine. They do this with no proper journalistic questioning or scepticism. They do this despite the fact that, in the last month, not only have we had repeated cries that invasion is “imminent”, we have had specific secret intelligence sourced claims from the Americans, that a Russian staged false flag attack was about to happen, and from the British, that there was about to be a coup in Kiev led by very minor figures. Both claims turned out to be nonsense.”
He continued: “Biden and Johnson both have an interest in stoking the fires of conflict to try to improve (well deserved) terrible poll ratings at home. NATO has an interest in promoting Cold War, its traditional raison d’etre. The disastrous results of NATO’s attempts to expand its role in Afghanistan and Libya have led to the organisation needing an apparent success. For all these western political interests, they see a win-win over Ukraine, because when Putin does not invade, they can claim it is a victory and that they forced Putin to back down.”
But also: “By taunting Putin with the position that Johnson and Biden will claim Putin lost if he does not invade, they are effectively daring him to invade.”
In this masterly analysis the West is responsible for both Putin not invading and for Putin invading. But ultimately Murray explains that despite the mass troops and the arrival of huge forces surrounding Ukraine: “I maintain the view that Putin is far too wily to be pushed into an invasion.”
Again, Putin is both wily and yet also has no volition. Any war that he might be involved in is something he has no control over. Murray was not alone on the ‘anti-imperial left’ in producing such grotesque stupidity.
@Editor, yes, although somehow Craig Murray managed to maintain his delusions until a few months ago that the Empire wasn’t all bad (he writes).
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2024/08/we-are-the-bad-guys/
It is pretty common for dissenters and whistleblowers to retain a large portion of the mindset of their establishment and colleagues, although the path they embark upon may lead to further divergence (eventually).
This, as I’ve suggested before, is something of a crucial phenomenon when we consider all the other people who signed the UK Official Secrets Act who might in future be living in an Independent Scotland. I don’t know how this will play out, and it concerns me.
“It is pretty common for dissenters and whistleblowers to retain a large portion of the mindset of their establishment and colleagues”
– what does that mean in this context?
@Editor, I thought that would be clear enough? Anyway, it’s a topic I can elaborate upon when you cover more of the Spycops inquiry. I believe there was more than one whistleblower come forward?
Mike – very well said about Murray’s analysis of Putin and Ukraine. It reminds me of Roger Waters who was spouting exactly the same rubbish the day before the invasion on his YT channel but even more so, saying Putin would never invade. Did he reconsider his position when he was proved 100% wrong the very next day, followed by his vile soldier thugs raping torturing and killing civilians? No, not one bit and even claiming what those soldiers were doing was Western propaganda and lies. Such people are incorrigible, dogmatically blind and whose political analyses become frankly worthless. In another universe, the Murrays and Waters of this world are at best classic useful idiots and at worst, potential Lord Haw-Haws.
John, you read wrongly. And the rest of the paragraph is profoundly patronising.
Derek – Craig Murray’s description of Assad’s regime being ‘flawed but pluralistic’ is clearly a massive understatement. The term flawed is doing a hell of a lot of heavy lifting here!
You then criticised Mike for pointing out this ludicrous statement as an attack on Craig Murray himself. You appeared to be defending the man rather than addressing what he had said. I acknowledge that you have later stated that you ‘don’t hold a candle for Craig Murray’ .
Apologies for coming over as patronising.
All the best
“If we are at 54% now, can you imagine where we’d be if we had had better leadership, more inspiring vision, and more radical ideas and policies? Can you imagine where we’d be if we had more control over our own media and the story we tell and are told?”
I do agree that we need better leadership. In fact ANY leadership at all would help. Without a bold leadership with a credible step by step plan for restoring Scotland’s rightful status as a nation-state the current apparent upturn in recent opinion surveys – Norstat and Survation – will likely then prove to be temporary as has happened previously. When our would-be leaders vacillate the opinion polls fluctuate.
As for visions of a future fully self-governing Scotland … everybody has one. Consequently visions only lead to divisions. However, the one thing all should be able to coalesce on is not what an independent Scotland would look like but what it would NOT be: We wouldn’t be in the United Kingdom. The focus should be on achieving the common goal of ending the hideously asymmetric Union with England.
Regarding ideas and policies the time and place to debate these would be in that fully independent state of Scotland. Transient policies and agendas are for future generations to shape and decide as well as alter to fit the circumstances of the day. Let’s achieve the mutual moral aim of realising Scotland’s Cause such that this provides the opportunity for Scots in future to decide specifically what are the priorities for this country and when they should be implemented and adjusted.
The only reason the SNP can make the promises it has is because of the cash sent their way by Rachel Reeves! Good politics from them, and not very good politics (in other areas) by Reeves.
But this poll is at best a snapshot, quite possibly an outlier. The 54% Yes support might indicate a sampling error.
In 2014, part of Salmond’s pitch was that we required independence to preserve what remains of social democracy.
Now the SNP is using the extra Reeves cash to push a bit more social democracy to preserve its role in government. Good luck to them! But it doesn’t make the case for independence- it’s a pitch for the status quo
Observer
You are correct stating that this is only one poll but though support for SNP has fallen over last 2 years support for independence has remained around 50%. Mike is correct in saying that the issue of independence is not going away regardless of unionist politicians trying to wish it away. Polling evidence shows that support for Labour is falling due to incumbency and some poor policy decisions. One would therefore expect some shift back from Labour to SNP in Scotland as disillusionment with Labour government sets in. I also think that Labour MP’s from Scotland are doing themselves no favours by using PMQ’s at Westminster to complain about Holyrood performance on devolved issues. It is of no relevance to Westminster and looks childish.
I think the additional monies allocated to devolved governments by Labour is actually making up for shortfalls allocated by previous government over previous couple of years.
If I was cynical I may think that RR allocating monies was her thinking that either this was her rewarding for Scotland & Wales for electing Labour MP’s or she thought that Labour would be in power at Holyrood soon and would therefore benefit from a better settlement.
In your last two paragraphs you state that AS wanted independence to preserve social democracy and then complain that JS is using the allocated monies to reinforce social democracy and status quo. What is problematic with that if that is what voters in Scotland want? I don’t get the point you are making – can you clarify?
The Labour Party are in a bind in that one the one hand they want to undermine the devolved settlement, which they are doing by direct rule, and on the other they want to prepare the ground for a Labour victory at Holyrood in 2026.
I think JS is right to give the voters what they want but I don’t see any explicit case being made that there could or would be more of this kind of thing under independence. It’s more of a re-election strategy than an independence strategy. My feeling is that JS does not detect any urgency among Scottish voters for another referendum, even if opinion polls remain positive.
I agree with you on this point. JS is currently focusing on SNP retaining power post 2026 Holyrood election after a difficult couple of years.
Where independence comes in voter’s priority will depend a lot on external events. A majority for Reform or Reform/ Tory combination at next GE could be such an event.
The priority of SNP and wider independence movement is to try and move independence up voter’s priorities and prepare the case for and confidence in independence so that they are ready to take full advantage when independence becomes a priority for electorate in Scotland.
“The only reason the SNP can make the promises it has is because of the cash sent their way by Rachel Reeves!”
No. Taxes raised in Scotland are returned via Westminster after being parsed through that system. It is not Rachel Reeves giving Scotland money!!!
Yes – the analogy is of a working person, still living at home, who hands all their earnings to their parents for their keep and gets pocket money back to live on.
Except the pocket money is now bigger than the earnings- we are not in the 1980s any more. The argument in recent years has been that independence would make us self sufficient- an argument based on hope over fear.
Hope lost out to fear- anger might defeat it, but a lot of anger appears to be directed at other targets currently
See Mike explaining below how Scottish taxes to Westminster exceed what is returned to Holyrood. You appear to agree with Mike on this point at 3.14 and then refute me saying the same thing at 3.19?
For detail we currently send to London (currently £88.5Bn) and receive £51Bn they let us have back whilst they continue to decide for us how to spend the other £37.5Bn.
For sure, but that doesn’t mean the SNP isn’t benefiting from a major spending boost- it is.
Politically, it’s just been bailed out by Reeves
No. Reeves could have chosen to stick with Tory spending plans and this would have required the Scottish government to raise billions more in taxes to do what it is now planning to do. Why do you think Robison was making in year cuts just a few months ago?
Scotland does not have significant fiscal autonomy and only very limited borrowing powers. If a U.K. chancellor freezes spending then Robison needs to raise taxes to raise spending.
The in year increase of £1.5bn and next year’s extra £3.4bn amounts to an additional just over £1000 per head of spending for every man woman and child in Scotland over an 18 month period that was not scheduled before July.
Now imagine the SNP trying to raise that extra without having control over inheritance tax, capital gains tax, national insurance or government borrowing.
Reeves is increasing spending significantly this year and next, with the SNP government the lucky recipients
I’m confused about your argument.
“Scotland does not have significant fiscal autonomy and only very limited borrowing powers.” Agreed, that’s why we need independence and control over our revenue like any other nation.
Observer seems not just confused but bitter that the Scottish government has been allocated additional funding.
I would have thought that if you live in Scotland additional funding would be welcome regardless of your views on independence?
I think any funding coming to Scotland is bad, because it would benefit the SNP, rather than anyone who was the recipient of that funding, therefore it is BAD.
if you live in a house with no chimney do not worry Santa is able to shrink down to a tiny size post himself thru your letterbox then inflate himself back to his usual dimensions whereupon the gifts shall be alow the tree on xmas morning as per usual
If ever the time was right for S<otland to get off its knees, then surely it is now.
The era of Salmond and Sturgeon is over.
We need some young leaders with fire in their bellies.
54% is good, 55% is better, 57% is runaway, 60% is unstoppable. (From the Taylor Institute, a thinkthank based in my front room)
2025, the long awaited S<ottish Spring.
Yes!
nonsense it shall go up & doun like the proverbial yoyo, same wey it ay duz, that is the nature ae tactically, but not often tactile, scotland
There are key metrics which particularly interest me as proxies for certain aspects of social health: interfaith and interdenominational marriage statistics. You can find explanations of both terms on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interfaith_marriage
Niemand, I trust you’re not calling for Roger Waters to be hanged? Or Craig Murray be hanged? Is that your mindset? Forever stuck in World War 2? My country right or wrong?
Nice one Derek, take a metaphor, extrapolate from it an unmentioned egregious specific, and then make the extrapolation a literal interpretation.
You’re too kind.
But . . . ‘my country right or wrong’, no, never as a mantra, very rarely as a principle, but yes, when push really comes to shove.
And do you think that applies to the present situation with Russia?
It would appear to from a Russian point of view?
Or to be more accurate from Putin ‘s point of view it appears to be: your country is my country right or wrong!
What a stupid comment.
Not at the moment.
Imagine though; Russia has said in an update to their internal policy that any nation supplying arms to Ukraine that Ukraine then used inside Russia would make that country a legitimate target, to a nuclear attack. This must mean a pre-emptive one as such a country would be by default otherwise. So, Russia drops a couple of ‘tactical’ nukes on the UK and Murray and Waters lay into the UK and West and say, shame about the devastation to Birmingham and London but if Putin was pushed into it, the UK has made itself a legitimate target.
What then – still not my country right or wrong? (and yes, I deliberately chose cities only in England so in this instance I do mean the UK as a ‘country’. If you wish you could add in Glasgow to the hypothetical.)
@Niemand, under NATO, British nuclear forces targeted their share of Ukraine, which included:
Melitopol, Poltava, Pryluky, Zhitomir, Bykhiv, Horokhiv, Stryy (all top-20 SAC priority airbase targets)
And urban-industrial targets in Ukraine including:
Chernihiv, Kherson, Khodorov, Kerch (Crimea), Kyiv, Lutsk, Lviv, Melitopol, Sevastopol (Crimea)
all according to official declassified sources such as this one:
https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb538-Cold-War-Nuclear-Target-List-Declassified-First-Ever/
More recent and more detailed NATO target plans, including UK independent targeting, were not available apparently at the time.
And since no USAmerican President has ever disavowed First Strike, these could have been hit as ‘pre-emptive’ nuclear strikes (especially since Ukraine would be the obvious muster area for Soviet troops heading West), presumably killing millions of Ukrainians (obviously NATO’s newfound concern for them is recent indeed). I mean, it’s pretty obvious why some Ukrainians might want to be inside NATO rather than face obliteration by it. And why they ditched nuclear weapons themselves.
Sleeping Dog – I am happy to let Ukrainians explain to me how they feel about NATO & Russia rather than have you explain on their behalf.
NATO isn’t perfect but last time I checked NATO had not :
invaded Ukrainian sovereign territory
bombed Ukrainian civilians and infrastructure
killed thousands of Ukrainians.
forced millions of Ukrainians to flee their own country
Strange how all the Ukrainian refugees decided to take their chance going west to Europe rather than east to Russia (forced deportations apart).
I suppose the Fins and Swedes also decided to join NATO out of fear from being bombed by NATO and it nothing to do with Russia and that nice Mr Putin?
@John, we live under a military dictatorship.
@John, you say that Craig Murray’s characterisation of the Syrian regime of President Assad as ‘flawed’ is ludicrous, but your characterisation of the genocidal-ecocidal-omnicidal World Evil NATO as:
“NATO isn’t perfect”
is orders of magnitude worse.
As Amnesty International put it:
“Nuclear deterrence is a strategy based on the threat of killing millions of people and unleashing humanitarian and environmental catastrophe, and it has no place in today’s world.”
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2021/01/un-nuclear-powers-must-sign-historic-treaty-making-nuclear-weapons-illegal/
And that’s without factoring in all the resource wars, the poisoning of the planet with fossil fuels, the arms trade, the profoundly anti-democratic nature of nuclear command-and-control system, the corruption of politics worldwide, the ongoing NATO support for settler colonialism, the increasing likelihood that NATO will serve a white Christian supremacist agenda (and hello Armageddon)…
You’re hysterical. This tub-thumping for war is all too easy for those keyboard warriors who don’t actually have to go and fight. I tell you one thing about Craig Murray and Roger Waters – both of them hate war. I do too. I hate the idea of elites sending young men to die on their behalf, Waters lost his father in the second world war and it had a major (!) effect on him, indeed it’s informed his work for the best part of forty-five years. Your blustering, Blimp-like defence of good old Blighty is fine as it goes, but spare me the moral high ground please.
You mean like Putin and his elite has done Derek, sending 71,000 young men to their deaths to date in an unjust, unnecessary and brutal, imperialist invasion of another country, not to mention the countless Ukrainians killed in the process of that invasion? What Murray and Waters, and I assume you, seem to wish is that Ukraine (and by default, the West) just accept that and let Russia take over, give in to Putin’s murderous aggression for the sake of peace. And you call those who do not think this a good idea, ‘tub thumping for war’. That is some seriously contorted thinking.
I remember John a wee while ago laying out his case against whataboutery. I had a wry smile as I was reading it. But we’re stuck Niemand – you believe that Russia’s war against Ukraine is “unjust, unecessary and brutal, (also, importantly Imperialist.) I believe precisely the same about NATO. That same NATO (it’s all of Europe, not just the Americans!) that has just ordered, in what appears to me to be personal spite, anti-personnel mines as well as various other hardware (whadya want guys, just name it, I’m away anyway) in order to perpetuate warfare. Not stop it, God(!) no, that would be too simplistic. I do not trust America in this regard, they will drop Ukraine as soon as it suits them, and turn their attention elsewhere (Syria?) All those Ukranian lives – and for what? Freeman moxy of course. Of course.
Niemand – Derek T & SD have a view of the world where the West & NATO are bad and that’s it.
When someone like Putin comes along and invades a sovereign nation with horrific consequences for the Ukrainian people who have requested membership of NATO (rejected) and both military and humanitarian support (delivered) they seem incapable of accepting that Russia is in the wrong and deflect by going back to blaming western countries for helping Ukrainians defend themselves and accusing them of warmongering.
Basically they both have a rigid, dogmatic view of the world and when reality does not meet their views rather than question their own position they prefer to try and distort reality.
I would really like them to discuss the reality of what has happened for ordinary Ukrainian’s with the refugee family, whose home had been destroyed, who stayed with us a couple of years back. I strongly suspect they would not be as polite as I have been in my comments!
@John, my view of NATO is based on cold, hard, established facts. You’ve made a terrible blunder writing “NATO isn’t perfect” and are desperately trying to cover up your own extremely dogmatic position.
NATO is the reason that many Russians turn to a ‘strongman’ leader like President Putin. NATO fatally undermines domestic opposition to him, because his enemies are real, and they cannot deny it. And NATO is likely the main culprit that scuppered any earlier peace settlement. NATO provided the provocation, NATO is waging proxy war expending the blood of Ukrainians, NATO is encircling the world with bases, NATO is supporting settler-colonial Zionism and its deranged Christian white supremacist backers. NATO is the single biggest threat to life on Earth.
If you want to rid the world of ‘strongman’ leaders, some of whom are NATO allies, then getting rid of NATO would be the rational option. Yes, rulers can always create or invent enemies, but NATO is an ideal real enemy of world peace and security, if you want to run an oppressive regime. And NATO embraced Putin when it came to the so-called ‘War on Terror’, perhaps you’ve conveniently forgotten that.
And you’ve also forgotten your reliance on Amnesty International for moral guidance, who have been staunch critics of NATO. For example:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2009/04/no-justicia-victimas-bombardeos-otan-20090423/
Military alliances are anti-democratic (don’t you understand that point?), and far from keeping the peace, are often instrumental in starting wars (notably in the global catastrophe of WW1). And nuclear weapons are an extreme form of anti-democracy (and anti-life). I’ll not recount all the sources I’ve mentioned in the past, but short useful phrases are Doomsday Planner and Thermonuclear Monarchy.
Finally, state propaganda makes it easy to point fingers at Official Enemies. Whereas citizenship means first holding one’s own rulers to account. I believe this is equivalent to The Mote and the Beam parable from Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, if Christians want to look to their own doctrine first.
SD – how would you suggest that the countries in the West and NATO should have responded on 24:02.2022 when they received requests from Ukraine for help in repelling the advancing Russian troops?
@John, history doesn’t start on your date of choice with your event of choice. I assume from your question that you don’t believe in a rules-based international order. And who has done the most to sabotage that?
Re-reading Niemand’s original post again to which you attached a reply, I think it is clear that the two countries most likely to drop tactical nukes on British soil are the USA and UK. Hopefully they won’t go off.
https://www.sgr.org.uk/resources/history-accidents-uk-s-nuclear-weapons-programme
SD – I probably agree with quite a bit of what you write about USA & NATO and military industrial complex.
I ignored Russia invading Crimea in 2012 and didn’t think Putin would invade in 2022. History has proven me wrong in this instance. When the facts change I reevaluate my own opinions.
I also agree, up to a point, that the West’s actions post 1990 had further destabilised Russia and helped bring Putin to power. Most Eastern Europe countries were not willing to hang around in establishing their own individual countries either. I also understand from history that the Versailles Agreement destabilised Germany and helped bring Hitler to power.
Where I differ is that I think you have to act on situations as you find them not how you wish they would be.
With apologies to Jeremy Paxman can you please just answer the question I posed – if you were a leader of a western nation how would you have responded to President Zelenskyy on 24.02.2022 when he phoned you asking for military assistance because Russian troops were invading Ukraine?
(Hint – he wasn’t looking for a long lecture on why it was happening or how it had been caused by NATO and the West at that point in time.)
@John, to answer your hypothetical, I don’t know. I expect if somehow I was parachuted into that position (are you a fan of Quantum Leap?) I would imagine my decision would be largely influenced by my briefings, standing doctrine, red telephone diplomacy and legal advice. The dangers of open-ended conflict, mission creep, ulterior motives of advisers, open motives of lobbyists, threat escalations and side effects would presumably weigh heavy in my mind.
I think Ukraine probably had to return Crimea, which might have been the most democratic option, but I would have hoped that the United Nations could have formulated this to stabilise the Ukrainian state and give them something in return. Then again, Ukraine asking for financial assistance while its authorities let its oligarchs plunder their own country seemed a bit off (oligarchs are a very widespread problem, of course).
But again, these are examples where I see all sorts of problems in humanist politics. That is, politics of Will rather than politics of Health, which ignore what Amitav Ghosh calls the “entire spectrum of nonhuman kin”. I cannot imagine being elected to leadership of a Western nation on a platform like that in 2022 would have been very likely.
I have come to the conclusion that this thread is a classic case of just how dangerous rigid adherence to political dogma can be and why I have always rejected ideologues and always will. The central message appears to be Putin’s Russia and NATO are equivalents and Putin’s invasion is basically just and the blame is in fact all on the West and Ukraine itself. I reject that totally as it has no basis in reality.
@Niemand, what dogma? You sound like SteveH now. As I’ve said before, there is a lot of information in the public domain that isn’t well-known by the public; there are personal experiences (like those of National Servicemen exposed to nuclear tests); there are recent releases of previously classified information (official and leaked); and there are confirmation of rumours and conjecture (all the above feature in the SpyCops case). Speaking about such things publicly which contradict the official line can lead to accusations of having some kind of agenda (that isn’t simply truthtelling). Whistleblowers are often dismissed in this way, or simply as disgruntled ex-employees.
I’m saying NATO is much worse than Russia, not that they are equivalents. NATO is the largest terror organisation in the world. This is just factual. That’s literally what they called it. A main aim of NATO was to outproduce the Warsaw Pact in terror, and it did. Nuclear weapons are terror weapons. And now illegal, under the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons (TPNW).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of_terror
The rationale for Russia annexing or taking back Crimea is a rationale for strengthening the Ukrainian state, and of course subsequent invasions were also illegal and immoral, just as NATO’s invasions, destabilisations, expansions and world terrorism is illegal and immoral. But NATO both provoked the subsequent invasions by threatened further expansion to Russia’s borders, and had the opportunity to offer some guarantees in a peace deal beforehand.
What we don’t tend to see, obviously, is the secret stuff that almost certainly goes on around any such potential deal. So, for example, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher doing secret negotiations with Argentina over the Falklands (Malvinas). So one cannot comment definitively. But since almost every war ends in a deal, the implication is that those who choose forever wars (like European colonialists, or NATO’s ‘war on terror’), have another agenda.
Holding up a mirror, you might see that instead of you translating to a brave Russian dissident, you will actually map on to a cheerleader for the Russian authorities, repeating their talking points, not trying to correct your information deficit. The Russian authorities should be condemned for trying to restart their Empire; but it’s the Empires of NATO which are pursuing world domination, neoliberal capitalism, planetary degradation and quite possibly destruction.
SD – the Russians had already annexed Crimea and their tanks were on the outskirts of Kyiv at this point. Russia is a member of Security Council of UN so could veto any settlement they don’t like. Putin is on record as not regarding Ukraine as a legitimate, sovereign nation.
I don’t profess to be an expert on international affairs but I am pretty confident in predicting that if the western leaders had responded as you outline above Ukraine would no longer exist as a country and I hate to think what would have happened to Ukrainians- Mariupol can give us some hint as to their fate.
SD – the dogma that seems to blind you to the murderous and totally unjust imperialist Russian aggression going on for the last two years and as we speak. Basically, by his own admission, Putin read some history books about Russia and decided his country had been robbed of swathes of its land, now independent states and has set about trying to get them back either through political ‘interference’ leading to puppet states or military invasion.
You double down on your view of NATO, more so in fact. This is liable to lead to a response in kind which I will avoid as it will lead us into a dead end if we have not already reached it.
I will close by saying this in response to my original comment – when push comes to shove I would support NATO over Putin’s repressive and cruel dictatorship without hesitation. Much of Europe would agree with me. If that makes me sound like SteveH, so be it.
Niemand – though Stevie H & Sleeping Dog come from opposite ends of political spectrum they are in some ways quite similar in their rather dogmatic approach, absolute conviction they are right and how they always appear to try and steer whatever topic is under discussion onto their pet hates.. (Stevie H – students & Sleeping Dog – NATO).
John, I’ve consciously not commented further. Maybe if you want to comment on this subject, try and make your comments about something other than other commentators. Heaven forfend that you’d be thought a wee sook.
Derek – follow the thread – it was all about Scottish independence until someone called Derek Thompson left a comment complaining about the article’s reference to Craig Murray.
If Sleeping Dog and yourself make comments about Ukraine & Syria which others consider are not only controversial but also quite offensive don’t complain when people push back. Just be glad you are free to promote different opinions in this country and contrast with what the outcome might be if you did this in Russia today?
This is definitely my last comment on this thread.
On the question of constitutional reform, the House of Commons library has just (2024-12-18) published this research briefing:
The United Kingdom constitution – a mapping exercise
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9384/
which takes the form of a 279-page learned opinion (or imagination, perhaps) of the British imperial quasi-Constitution.
I’ve only skimmed a few sections so far, but there are some interesting observations in the Royal Prerogative, Overseas, military, established church topics.
But these kinds of documents are often as interesting in what they leave out. What is ‘unconstitutional’, a word that only appears once? Where is Empire? Where is the boss USAmerican Empire? Where is NATO? Where are the topical examples, such as the Chagos Islanders? Where are the relevant international rulings against the UK/British Empire? If this is a real Constitution, who is its constitutional guardian? Why do the royals feature so predominantly, but nature/environment gets no look-in (except maybe as a resource for plunder)?
Well. Perhaps anyone reading it is likely to formulate their own questions. Are political constitutions really supposed to be such a puzzle or mystery?